I can do better than that!

[cheddatom]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1334577663' post='1617834']
To the originals bands that are not gigging or who are paying to play; write better songs.

To the musicians who look down their noses; if you can’t get an audience who are not your mates through the door you’re actually not as good as you imagine.
[/quote]

hmmmm, sometimes the lack of audience can be down to other factors. Publicity, location, finance, commitment etc. There are loads of great original bands who never get anywhere.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1334578791' post='1617867']
hmmmm, sometimes the lack of audience can be down to other factors. Publicity, location, finance, commitment etc. There are loads of great original bands who never get anywhere.
[/quote]

Any originals band that is really serious about what they do will find ways to overcome these "obstacles". Those that can't simply haven't woken up to the fact that just being ab;le to play an instrument in a band with some decent songs isn't actually anywhere near enough.

[crez5150]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1334578995' post='1617870']
Any originals band that is really serious about what they do will find ways to overcome these "obstacles". Those that can't simply haven't woken up to the fact that just being ab;le to play an instrument in a band with some decent songs isn't actually anywhere near enough.
[/quote]

Very much this..... One of the reasons the original band I was in stopped was because we simply didn't allocate enough time to doing the legwork, sorting out PR.... forgetting about merchandising..... we concentrated on playing too much. Fail

[cheddatom]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1334578995' post='1617870']
Any originals band that is really serious about what they do will find ways to overcome these "obstacles". Those that can't simply haven't woken up to the fact that just being ab;le to play an instrument in a band with some decent songs isn't actually anywhere near enough.
[/quote]

I agree! I was just saying the music might be ace, even if the band are going no-where

[WalMan]

[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1334564921' post='1617519']
This is a topic no doubt that has been discussed on BC many times before, but allow me to vent!

I went out for a meal with my girlfriend on Saturday night and she wanted to catch some live music after we had eaten. I took her to a well known live music venue in Cardiff and as we walked in a 5-piece covers band were setting up. Sorted! Soon afterwards they started to play their first set. Apart from being horrifically loud for the size of the venue they were simply just awful. The singers voice was very weak, flat and forgot his lyrics, the drummer knew only two beat patterns for every song they played, the bass player didn’t know that he was playing the wrong notes for at least 2 bars before realising on quite a few songs and the guitar player…well…he was actually pretty good to be fair! Sometimes a band can have a bad night (we all do), but you can tell that they are simply crap anyway.

I am not focussing so much on their ability or talent, but more on how much my girlfriend (along with many others) enjoyed their performance despite being so bad. I really struggled to enjoy the evening hearing so many monumental mistakes being made or lack of effort to at least play the song vaguely similar to the original. I have got to a stage whereby I am very pensive about going out to see a live band in town…covers bands to be precise. Most of my live work at the moment is with covers bands and we do put a lot of effort in to study the songs and get them sounding tight and as precise to the original song as possible. And yet, we are struggling to get into well paid venues in the area such as this one and a bunch of plebs can walk in to play a bunch of songs very poorly and get away with it. I couldn’t help but feel a bit gutted and a tad bit angry.

As a musician I can be hyper critical (and often I am) about other performing musicians. But, the bigger thing for me is that punters will enjoy a poor band as equally as a good one. Most folks at the venue are not musicians and don’t pick up on the mistakes or bad musicianship. I’m fine with that…as long as they have a great night who cares really, but I go out to perform to my best ability so that the punters can enjoy their evening. Is my hard work to achieve that noticeable?

As I get older and more experienced with my musical endeavours I find it harder to enjoy myself at a gig for these reasons. This kills me because above all else I am a music fan and I want to enjoy live music, but I do have a competitive nature. I think you gain that on the covers circuit after a while because you are all fighting to get the best gig in town. But, it does really vex me when I watch a band in venues with high exposure that we can’t get into that are not good enough for the fee they are paid and the punters big them up. I need to relax more and let it go over my head, but I can't help feel that the punters deserve better even though they might not know it.
[/quote]
This, and sadly
[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1334569926' post='1617607']
It's always tempting to vent over this sort of thing. After all, one has put so much effort into mastering one's instrument and one's material and being musicianly and whatnot.

But really, it's not remotely about this other band's technical failings. Somehow or another, they must be doing [i]something[/i] right because they've got the gig and the OP hasn't. Perhaps someone in their band is a consummate gig-blagger. Perhaps their marketing is better. Maybe a booker looks at their setlist and thinks "That's the right mix". Maybe they played for free. Maybe the drummer's related to the booker.

Whatever the reason, they've exploited it and there's little benefit in us going down the "Bookers are stupid and punters are stupid" route because you have to work with what you're given.

Selling a band in to a booker is like selling anything else. Find out what people want and give it to them. Problem is, many of us start out by focussing on what [i]we[/i] want to play and how to play it - genre, material, arrangements etc. That's the wrong way round if your aim is to secure regular gigs at local venues. The crafty ones survey the market and focus as much on how they present their offering as how they deliver it.

As for punters not noticing, well who cares if they notice or not? Our job is not to present a faultless musical display but to entertain them in the broadest possible sense. Let's face it, if people will happily dance to a record, they're clearly not too bothered about the 'live' component. They just want a beat and a tune, preferably one they know.

Audience engagement is about much more than playing the right notes, yet how often is this critical issue discussed on BC? Hardly ever. The reason why we're collectively less successful than we could be is because we spend too much time on here agonising about tone and cables and guitarists' irritating little habits.

Frankly, looking an audience member in the eye and smiling at them is a lot more productive than executing that fancy lick we spent all afternoon learning. But we never learn.

[color=#FFFFFF].[/color]
[/quote]This

I have got to the end of a night on a dep and thought it had been a frankly sh1te night where the crowd, MrsW included, have been raving about what a great night it was and I just despair. Been to those gigs where I look at the band and think WTF and the reaction they are getting and similarly get to the end of a night with my main lot where we work our nuts off to be tight etc and get sweet FA and think "why do I bother" but 'twas ever thus.

I think it's me that is the jinx sometimes Perhaps as JTUK says we should have just given up to old age years ago.

There is a gig just round the corner from me, but a bit out of town & the main drag, that is trying to make a go of it, has good lights & a house PA, but sometimes you go in there and it seems to be the usual p155ed up bug eyed monsters in who could frankly care less and eventually have that last one and stagger off to the gutter halfway through the night. I feel sorry for the guy who is really trying to make a go of it, but I suspect is struggling, not helped by the mafia from one of the other gigs in town (used to be the main/only one despite being a sh1t place to play - punters walk through the band to the bogs etc).

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1334578791' post='1617867']
hmmmm, sometimes the lack of audience can be down to other factors. Publicity, location, finance, commitment etc. [/quote]

True, one cannot eliminate every impediment. But much of this in the band's purview.

Publicity - DIY
Location - Well, where one plays and which venues one approaches is definitely the band's choice.
Finance - Starve

Commitment - Well, band or audience? If band, commitment is the band's problem. If the audience, well it's like Cornflakes, innit? Sometimes people say 'F**k your silly Cornflakes" and switch to Shreddies. So you have to find some new people to buy the Cornflakes.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's not the audience's job to support the band. It's the band's job to support the audience.

Edited April 16, 2012 by skankdelvar

[xilddx]

[quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1334577363' post='1617822']
When I was exclusively a music lover, and not yet a musician, I enjoyed going to see cover bands, but I was perfectly able to notice when they weren't good - simply because in those cases the songs I knew and loved did not sound like the songs I knew and loved.

It doesn't matter that I was reasonably music-savvy and could tell that the singer was out of his range and sounded nothing like Sebastian Bach, or that the guitarist's grasp of scales definitely wasn't going to cause Kirk Hammett any sleepless nights, or that it bloody well wasn't Geezer Butler playing on that version of Heaven And Hell, etc. Even if I had been without that knowledge, the songs would simply have sounded wrong.

However, many people like to go to a pub where a band is playing and throw a few shapes after downing a few pints, and aren't able to tell the difference between a good and a bad performance, even when they know and love the songs they hear. And if they have a good time and come back, landlords will be happy to have them again.

As many said before, it's a matter of what you want to achieve. The better bands will make progress and have a chance to leave the pub circuit for something better, while the crap bands will stay where they are.
When I say 'have a chance' I don't mean they will necessarily make it, because the market is tough, but at least they'll be able to try.

Having said that, there are many examples of worthless bands or individuals who go on to make it. Unfortunately that's a fact of life and it happens in all fields. I work as a technical translator - among other things - and have got used to clients not being able to tell a good translation by someone highly qualified, who knows the subject inside out, from ungrammatical offerings by someone who just happens to be Italian and speak a bit of English, and whose actual day job is being a waitress or a builder.
Choosing the less good - but invariably cheaper - option will usually come back to bite the client on their behind, in due course, but in the meantime it's quite galling to be part of such an uninformed selection process and often lose out.

The only thing to do is persevere, because we love what we do and we love to do it to the best of our ability.[b] And there are still people out there, in all fields, who can tell the difference.[/b]
[/quote]

That's nice, I like that.

[lowdown]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1334565875' post='1617536']
Keep hard at it and you'll stand out from the crowd [/quote]

Indeed..........

Some covers bands can end up at a very high standard, as can an original band of course.
I have seen one particular covers outfit a few times.
They play songs that were written donkeys years ago,
the venue is always full, lots of merchandise,CD'd/DVD's, always have a good sound and can be loud - they have great management.
The don't seem to make a lot of eye contact with the punters, and quite often the band leader has his back to the audience.
They seem to attract a lot of the female gender to the gig as well.
I do know one Musician in the their set up, and he is very happy with the Euro's he gets paid.
They are called the Berlin[er] Philharmonic.

Some people go to listen to [what they feel] is good music - others just go to have a good time regardless of the band, but like the venue.
The OP's venue might just be the later type of venue.


Garry

Edited April 16, 2012 by lowdown

[chaypup]

[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1334564921' post='1617519']
This is a topic no doubt that has been discussed on BC many times before, but allow me to vent!

I went out for a meal with my girlfriend on Saturday night and she wanted to catch some live music after we had eaten. I took her to a well known live music venue in Cardiff and as we walked in a 5-piece covers band were setting up.
[/quote]

Was this the Live Lounge? It's pretty much the lowest common denominator as far as live music goes in Cardiff. If you're in town with your good lady again and want to see decent bands then might I suggest you go to Ghwdihw? Consistently has excellent bands from all kinds of genres on!

Personally, I get more frustrated by bands who are musically good but simply can't be bothered to make any connection with the audience - ruins it for me.

[crez5150]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1334580843' post='1617923']
Indeed..........

Some covers bands can end up at a very high standard, as can an original band of course.
I have seen one particular covers outfit a few times.
They play songs that were written donkeys years ago,
the venue is always full, lots of merchandise,CD'd/DVD's, always have a good sound and can be loud - they have great management.
The don't seem to make a lot of eye contact with the punters, and quite often the band leader has his back to the audience.
They seem to attract a lot of the female gender to the gig as well.
I do know one Musician in the their set up, and he is very happy with the Euro's he gets paid.
They are called the Berlin[er] Philharmonic.

Some people go to listen to [what they feel] is good music - others just go to have a good time regardless of the band, but like the venue.
The OP's venue might just be the later type of venue.


Garry
[/quote]


meh..... you tease

[shizznit]

[quote name='chaypup' timestamp='1334582504' post='1617961']
Was this the Live Lounge?
[/quote]

No, it was O'Neils

[quote name='chaypup' timestamp='1334582504' post='1617961']
It's pretty much the lowest common denominator as far as live music goes in Cardiff.
[/quote]

I play there quite often!

[chaypup]

Erk!

Well I'm sure your band are great but IME the Live Lounge is a meat market and not particualrly discerning .

[charic]

Knicking "Meat Market" for a song title!

[Silvia Bluejay]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1334584846' post='1618001']
Knicking "Meat Market" for a song title!
[/quote]

Dunno why it sounds like something Megadeth might choose for an ironic twist... You know, in the vein of Rust In Peace or Youthanasia

[chaypup]

Disappointingly.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mssW1Ut53Y


They also have a song called 'Button for Punishment'!

[charic]

[quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1334585114' post='1618002']
Dunno why it sounds like something Megadeth might choose for an ironic twist... You know, in the vein of Rust In Peace or Youthanasia
[/quote]

I'm going to knick it for the comedy progressive punk band that I'm putting together

It will most probably be rather explicit

[Gareth Hughes]

Haven't read all this thread but just wanted to chip in my tuppence worth's.

It is a sad state of affairs that the general public don't notice mistakes but that's the way it is. Just hold on to your own integrity and don't give in to the 'why bother?' mentality.

I had an equally depressing moment years ago explaining to my in-laws that all the bands they were watching on the country's biggest chat show were all miming, except for the lead vocal. Took quite a bit of explaining to get the point across. They just couldn't hear that the performance that night on tv was identical to the one being played on the radio - and in fairness, why should they even care? A life changing piece of music or band for us is merely someone else's tune to hum when they're doing the ironing.

[cheddatom]

I don't know anything about drama. I could go to a play full of glaring errors and still have a good time. I don't think that's a sad state of affairs!

[gafbass02]

You could well be describing my current band, we started as a joke with me on guitar and vocals of all things, I often still (discretely) read the lyrics and am a pretty rubbish singer/guitarist and the bass player is often wrong, and the drummer far from flexible and has a habit of stopping in the wrong places.
And yet in under a year we've gone from a joke at the local open mic to a well known and liked band, getting paid bookings and crowds loving us, and talking about us.
I guess I just realised that all my clever technique on bass went over everyone's heads and nobody cared, the song choices and atmosphere is what sells us.
I think it's exactly because I'm NOT a guitarist or singer that I was able to put together a band that just played what people enjoyed rathe than what I enjoyed.
Oddly it's the most fun I've ever had !!
Now if only my bassist wasn't about to quit :-(
Anyone want an awesome gig in Cheltenham?
[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1334564921' post='1617519']
This is a topic no doubt that has been discussed on BC many times before, but allow me to vent!

I went out for a meal with my girlfriend on Saturday night and she wanted to catch some live music after we had eaten. I took her to a well known live music venue in Cardiff and as we walked in a 5-piece covers band were setting up. Sorted! Soon afterwards they started to play their first set. Apart from being horrifically loud for the size of the venue they were simply just awful. The singers voice was very weak, flat and forgot his lyrics, the drummer knew only two beat patterns for every song they played, the bass player didn’t know that he was playing the wrong notes for at least 2 bars before realising on quite a few songs and the guitar player…well…he was actually pretty good to be fair! Sometimes a band can have a bad night (we all do), but you can tell that they are simply crap anyway.

I am not focussing so much on their ability or talent, but more on how much my girlfriend (along with many others) enjoyed their performance despite being so bad. I really struggled to enjoy the evening hearing so many monumental mistakes being made or lack of effort to at least play the song vaguely similar to the original. I have got to a stage whereby I am very pensive about going out to see a live band in town…covers bands to be precise. Most of my live work at the moment is with covers bands and we do put a lot of effort in to study the songs and get them sounding tight and as precise to the original song as possible. And yet, we are struggling to get into well paid venues in the area such as this one and a bunch of plebs can walk in to play a bunch of songs very poorly and get away with it. I couldn’t help but feel a bit gutted and a tad bit angry.

As a musician I can be hyper critical (and often I am) about other performing musicians. But, the bigger thing for me is that punters will enjoy a poor band as equally as a good one. Most folks at the venue are not musicians and don’t pick up on the mistakes or bad musicianship. I’m fine with that…as long as they have a great night who cares really, but I go out to perform to my best ability so that the punters can enjoy their evening. Is my hard work to achieve that noticeable?

As I get older and more experienced with my musical endeavours I find it harder to enjoy myself at a gig for these reasons. This kills me because above all else I am a music fan and I want to enjoy live music, but I do have a competitive nature. I think you gain that on the covers circuit after a while because you are all fighting to get the best gig in town. But, it does really vex me when I watch a band in venues with high exposure that we can’t get into that are not good enough for the fee they are paid and the punters big them up. I need to relax more and let it go over my head, but I can't help feel that the punters deserve better even though they might not know it.
[/quote]

[MetricMike]

Some people seem to be mistaking music and the music business.

Music is what we play because we aspire to be the best musicians we can playing music we enjoy and that stretches us technically. In covers band terms the music business is about playing songs that the punters immediatly recognise, can dance to, can sing along to and often makes them feel nostalgic. Oh and it helps if the front man/woman has a personality that can get the crowd in a party mood and that they can identify with.

I play in a covers band myself and recently we have not played any gigs (through choice) because we are having a major re-think trying to square that circle between what we enjoy and what the punters will enjoy. We also have to sort out the fact that our newish singer has a fabulous voice (probably the best I have played with) but is going to struggle with the front person role.

We still play, because we all love music, but gigging isn't just about that (however much we all wish it was).

Before you criticise the punters too much for their lack of taste, open mindedness etcetera, just think back to gigs you have been to and your reaction when you heard those oft dreaded words "We are going to play some new songs now".

Remember "[i]People don't know what they like[/i], [i]they like what they know[/i]."

[bremen]

[quote name='MetricMike' timestamp='1334592997' post='1618175']


Remember "[i]People don't know what they like[/i], [i]they like what they know[/i]."
[/quote]

Up to a point, but I play in a covers band and our singer regularly gets audiences singing along with the one original in the set. He introduces it as 'you haven't heard this but I guarantee you'll be singing it to yourself in the shower tomorrow'.

Some of the surliest audiences I've played to have gone for it, too.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='MetricMike' timestamp='1334592997' post='1618175']
Remember "[i]People don't know what they like[/i], [i]they like what they know[/i]."
[/quote]

If that was actually true there'd never be anything approaching original music, surely?

[MetricMike]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1334594069' post='1618205']
If that was actually true there'd never be anything approaching original music, surely?
[/quote]

Sorry it was a bit of a throw away comment at the the end of my post and yes it is a huge generalisation, and obviously isn't true in all cases but if we are talking about covers bands in pubs it does hold true for a huge percentage of the audience. Apart from anything else they are there to enjoy a drink, the company of friends etcetera and the music is just a part of the experience of a night out, and they do not neccesarily want to make the effort required to listen to new things

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1334593937' post='1618202']
He introduces it as 'you haven't heard this but I guarantee you'll be singing it to yourself in the shower tomorrow'.

Some of the surliest audiences I've played to have gone for it, too.
[/quote]

I bet in this case you have a good front man who has enough charisma and personality to bring the audience along with him and its a fair bet that your set list has brought the audience along to a point where you are able to do this, it isnt just your musical prowess that has led them there.

Even amongst those of us who love to seek out and discover new sounds it can sometimes take a few listens before we become comfortable with something that is totally unfamiliar to us.

In the past when putting set lists together, at the point where we want people to get up and dance we played Brown Eyed Girl. We didnt play it any better than the other songs we played, none of the band members enjoyed playing that much - but - it works! Why because the audience are familiar with it, it isnt challenging to listen to and know they can comfortably dance to it without there being any suprises. I guess others use Oasis songs or Mustang Sally in the same way. Yes it is frustrating at times but unless you have something very special to offer that's the way it works.

[Sibob]

Are you aware that the band has that line up all the time?
For all we know the drummer and bassist could be deps, unlikely perhaps, but I've certainly been on gigs with 2 or 3 other deps, seat of your pants but nice and organic

Si

[Pete Academy]

There used to be a three-piece band in stoke called fatal attraction. They were so bad it was funny. The audience loved them because the songs sounded a little like the original songs.