What is it about Rickenbackers?

[4000]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1335112812' post='1625923']
It took away my choice to buy some very excellent japanese basses, and others, best part of 100 pages of posts worth for a start, that's one thread. As well as the option of showing pictures of such things on this forum. You don't get much more real than that. The objection is in not being able to choose a product with all of the upsides and not the downsides, of which there are many, which have been addressed by a number of manufacturers. Actual prevention of improvements is actually happening. In real life.
[/quote]

Ah, so that's what this is about. FWIW I don't see the point in Ric pursuing old copies and private sellers of such but I don't have a problem with them stopping anybody making & selling copies now. I haven't personally played any copies that have had "all of the upsides and not the downsides" (maybe either you've been lucky or I've been unlucky) and would be interested to see these manufacturers improvements if you could show them. FWIW if I want an "improved" Ric (in my terms, because of the features I like) I start looking at pre-'73s which generally have all the features I want, then I just look for one that suits me. As for prevention of improvements, if you mean they're stopping people taking their designs, then yes, they are, and I have no problem with it. If you're talking about improvements such as the Hipshot, to my knowledge they're still available. Then of course there are the "improvements" I suggested earlier (rewinds etc), none of which are prevented from happening. You can still fit other tuners, bridges (Badass etc), pickups ; no one is stopping you doing that. I guess it kind of all depends on how authentic you want your "improvements" to be (which is a bit counter-productive in the first place). "Improvements" are also, as stated previously, subjective. Then again, there's always the 4004....again.

I just hope this objection isn't based on the fact that you can get an old copy for, say, half the price (or less?) of a used Ric and you're simply unwilling or unable to pay full whack. Also FWIW, I'm sure if you really want one, you'll still be able to get hold of one. I'm sure anyone who has seen your posts and has one they want to sell could PM you. Or make one yourself. Just don't ever try to sell it. In fact, don't even look at it (in the words, thereabouts, of Nigel Tufnell).

Edited April 22, 2012 by 4000

[Mr. Foxen]

My objection is based on the same objection I have to any product who's main selling point is a high price based on no substance. I buy things based on them being good for purpose, at price. I advise anyone else to do the same. I'm a guy who people go to for advice when it comes to bass gear, not so much for decorations.

[4000]

But it's only based on no substance [i]in your opinion[/i]. Quite obviously there are others who don't share your opinion. Did you read what I put about the likely cost of having one built by an established luthier? Of course if we're not careful we also get into a value/price of art argument. Because to me a musical instrument is not simply a functional thing, it is (or should be) a piece of playable art. As I said before, it's about aesthetics (subjective), tone (subjective), feel (subjective) etc. If this isn't the case for you then fine, you buy what you want, I'll buy what I want and I would advise anybody else to buy what they want. Or would you want to limit my or their choice?

[4 Strings]

Just to miss your point, I'm afraid I disagree about musical instruments having to be a piece of art.

I play in a Motown tribute band, we get paid for playing. I use a 1976 Fender Precision bass with Trubass strings which some may find beautiful, but actually a mass produced tool that is required to function in a specific and reliable manner. If it doesn't then it would have to be replaced on the spot.

[Mr. Foxen]

Or not playable art. Yes its my opinion, because everything I say is my opinion. My opinion, however, is backed up by experience, knowledge, thought etc, and additionally wealth of observable and demonstrable facts. Only one Rickenbacker that has come through my hands did so purely for aesthetic reasons and even then was in anticipation of the same issue occurring. Telling someone to buy what they want isn't advice, it is wasted words. They are seeking advice to figure the best way to realise what they want, and only if a fully functioning good value for money instrument was their absolute last priority, would I advise Rickenbacker, and even then I'd advise a couple of products to deal with the more immediate inadequacies, depending on their playing style (assuming playing it is a consideration for them). Being a piece of art doesn't mean something can also be called a bass, a musical instrument, or playable, and I'd put those things far ahead in my recommendations I wouldn't hire Jackson Pollock to paint my house, I'd definitely advise others to avoid doing so. I'm much better qualified to hold opinions about music gear.

[4000]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1335131538' post='1626267']
Or not playable art. Yes its my opinion, because everything I say is my opinion. My opinion, however, is backed up by experience, knowledge, thought etc, and additionally wealth of observable and demonstrable facts. Only one Rickenbacker that has come through my hands did so purely for aesthetic reasons and even then was in anticipation of the same issue occurring. Telling someone to buy what they want isn't advice, it is wasted words. They are seeking advice to figure the best way to realise what they want, and only if a fully functioning good value for money instrument was their absolute last priority, would I advise Rickenbacker, and even then I'd advise a couple of products to deal with the more immediate inadequacies, depending on their playing style (assuming playing it is a consideration for them). Being a piece of art doesn't mean something can also be called a bass, a musical instrument, or playable, and I'd put those things far ahead in my recommendations I wouldn't hire Jackson Pollock to paint my house, I'd definitely advise others to avoid doing so. I'm much better qualified to hold opinions about music gear.
[/quote]

That's fair enough. My opinion is also based on fact. I've owned 13 or 14 Rics and have played probably hundreds. As a brand, I have over 30 years of experience of them. Our experiences simply differ. In my experience the well-known brand with the biggest percentage of dogs I've come across (and IMO bad pieces of design) is Fender by a vast margin, but I'm not going to call them all junk or put anyone else off buying them, because that's simply my experience and might not be anyone else's. Also, as I've already stated, I've played some very good ones too.

FWIW the problem with giving advice is that whatever you advise might not suit them, which is a caveat you have to add. Also, they might not experience the same issues you have.

Of course "playable art" also needs to function (also addressing 4 strings' post above) but that's my point. My 2 main Rics have been going strong for 40 years. My first one has seen off many, many supposedly better, more functional instruments. The neck never ever moves, for instance, unless I want it to. I'm quite happy with that. If you're going to give advice you should give balanced advice and whilst you may state your experience you should also state that other people's experiences may (indeed do) differ.

[Mr. Foxen]

2 of 14 or 14 of hundreds just isn't a good enough hit ratio to justify their price point. I picked my main bass from a rack of a couple of dozen, minus a few that were sold before I got there, I could have bought all of them, and binned the others and still come out ahead of buying a Rick. If someone is credulous enough to not think that my advice is not the final word and completely without flaws regardless of my reasoning, which I always provide, then they are clearly the sort of person who will be happy with whatever they are told anyway, so my advice will automatically be right. They are probably the sort who judges quality by brand and regardless of price, and thus in need of guidance lest they start paying art prices for paintbrushes.

[4000]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1335168790' post='1626454']
2 of 14 or 14 of hundreds just isn't a good enough hit ratio to justify their price point. I picked my main bass from a rack of a couple of dozen, minus a few that were sold before I got there, I could have bought all of them, and binned the others and still come out ahead of buying a Rick. If someone is credulous enough to not think that my advice is not the final word and completely without flaws regardless of my reasoning, which I always provide, then they are clearly the sort of person who will be happy with whatever they are told anyway, so my advice will automatically be right. They are probably the sort who judges quality by brand and regardless of price, and thus in need of guidance lest they start paying art prices for paintbrushes.
[/quote]

Firstly, you're (possibly deliberately) twisting what I've said. Of all the Rics I've had, only 1, an old '73 (bought via the internet and found to be severely water damaged) wasn't fit for purpose. The others were perefectly good basses; some I had years. However I now look for very specific things in a bass (something that is constantly developing as I play more and more instruments); a particular neck profile, a specific sound, light weight, certain aesthetic features as I've mentioned before. I now wouldn't buy a mid-to-late-70's 4001 simply because they changed the shape, inlays,pickups and neck profile somewhat and I don't like it as much. Over the years Ric have changed the spec and I've found there are many things about the early ones, not least aesthetics, that I prefer. That's why I've kept the ones I have, because they've suited me better, not because the others have had problems(indeed some I've sold because I needed the cash or wanted to try a different bass; some Rics have funded other Rics that I prefer). To reiterate yet again, just because something isn't perfect for me doesn't mean it is flawed, in the same way that because I prefer ketchup to brown sauce doesn't mean there's something inherently wrong with brown sauce. Of the hundreds I've played there were many more I would have bought if I'd had the money, but unsurprisingly not all were to my taste.

If your argument is that they aren't all the same, I actually find that a positive rather than a negative. If you're arguing you may get 100 different basses, as long as they all (or the majority at least) function, what's the issue? To me that makes life far more interesting; I like personality in an instrument, although to be honest the chances of trying 100 of ANY brand and finding them all to be the same is extremely unlikely. If they were all the same, what if they were all based on a specific bass that didn't really work for me, rather than one that did? A friend bought my old '76 off me and loves it, vastly prefers it to my main '72. I vastly prefer my '72. We're different players, looking for different things from our Rics. I see that as good (remember choice?). If all Rics were the same as the '76, I'd never have found my '72. I'm sure Fender owners, Wal owners, Status owners, insert bass of choice owners would all say the same thing.

I won't argue that you can't get a bass which functions perfectly well at a much lower price point, because of course you can. I could probably buy a cheap P copy or something and gig with it perfectly well; in fact I once bought an OLP for £80 which functioned perfectly adequately. But I like if possible for an instrument to stir the soul somewhat. If you don't care about that then fine, that's your choice. But it isn't mine.

When I give advice about buying a bass I will point out issues to look out for, but I would never, ever completely write off a particular brand as doing so could mean that the person asking for advice may, if they took that advice, miss out on the very instrument that works for them. We're all different and we all need different things.

To be honest, as I can see this discussion going on for months without getting anywhere, I suggest we agree to disagree.

[dogload]

Rickenbackers have always been my 'dream' instruments- the 360 guitars and the 4001/ 3 bass- and I have always wanted to own them. As a guitarist I have a 360/12 and a 360/ 6, but have never managed to get the bass. Why? They just never quite do it for me; like many of the previous posters, I can never get 'the sound' (that clanky, gravelly but full-bodied seventies thing, like on old Renaissance records) and they never feel right for me.
The bassist in the band I'm in has one, and I don't like playing it. Also, it doesn't 'sound like a Ric' when he plays it either. Anyway, I'm glad I found this thread, coz I thought it was just me. I think I'm gonna stick with my old Hohner PJ style.

Edited April 23, 2012 by dogload

[Beedster]

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1335183301' post='1626769']

When I give advice about buying a bass I will point out issues to look out for, but I would never, ever completely write off a particular brand as doing so could mean that the person asking for advice may, if they took that advice, miss out on the very instrument that works for them. We're all different and we all need different things.
[/quote]

The sort of bad advice that stopped me playing Rics for about 30 years

[Beedster]

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1335183301' post='1626769']
To be honest, as I can see this discussion going on for months without getting anywhere, I suggest we agree to disagree.
[/quote]

I think all possible arguments have been aired and, on that basis, this sentiment should prevail

[Stag]

I love mine, both of them. People who saw my band back when i was busy identified me with the Ric, its sound, and therefore the band became associated with it. If that isnt a good thimg for any bassist then nothing is going to please you.

I like them cos they look cool, they sound cool, and they suit my style of playing. Simples

Edited April 23, 2012 by Stag