Bilbo Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I read a lot about music and am really interested in the relationship between Jazz and Free Jazz and the Civil Rights movement in the US in the 1960s. Books like Frank Kofsky's 'Black Nationalism and the Revolution in Music', Val Wilmer's 'Jazz People', John Litweiler's 'The Freedom Principle' and others really project a sense that the music that these guys were playing at the time were moulded in the tenor of the times and gave the activists involved a voice. ThHe same could be said of the Punk era; the changes that this musical genre instigated in Art, Fashion and Theatre etc was clearly a manifestation of the divisions in our society at that time. Comedians were defined by their politics as much as by their jokes and many acts were critical of the status quo. I also don't think it is a coincidence that the last Jazz resurgance rose out of the ashes of Punk. Folk music is chock full of protest songs and a lot of Reggae came from a similar emotional space. I guess that I am wondering whether we should expect some more angry young men and women to come along soon and start shouting no. I hope so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreek Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Some would argue that Rap has been doing this for the past 20-30 years..others might argue that Rap isn't music and that they should just shut up!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 (edited) I think that music can be a vehicle for a desire for social change, but it is not a progenitor of that desire. The desire predates the expression, IMO. But it can be a rallying call or, at the very least, an agreeable soundtrack upon which may one look back with pleasurable nostalgia. The problem is that music is a tool and that tool can be wielded by anyone. For every Woody Guthrie and for every Marseillaise ([i]Aux Armes Citoyens![/i]) there is an Edward Elgar and a Horst Wessel Lied. Music can be a vehicle for repression as much as it can be a vehicle for change. As for shouting, angry young men and women, well, they have most recently manifested themselves in the Rap movement. If we're looking for a contemporary UK movement, I don't think the agriculturally-clad youngsters of nu-folk are about to start making petrol bombs. In sleepy London Town, there ain't no place for a street-fighting man. [color=#ffffff].[/color] Edited April 20, 2012 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 But Rap has also grown stale and bloated like everything it tried to break down in the first place. We could do with more shouty angry people doing something different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted April 20, 2012 Author Share Posted April 20, 2012 [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1334933470' post='1623724'] I think that music can be a vehicle for a desire for social change, but it is not a progenitor of that desire. The desire predates the expression, IMO. But it can be a rallying call or, at the very least, an agreeable soundtrack upon which may one look back with pleasurable nostalgia. The problem is that music is a tool and that tool can be wielded by anyone. For every Woody Guthrie and for every Marseillaise ([i]Aux Armes Citoyens![/i]) there is an Edward Elgar and a Horst Wessel Lied. Music can be a vehicle for repression as much as it can be a vehicle for change. As for shouting, angry young men and women, well, they have most recently manifested themselves in the Rap movement. If we're looking for a contemporary UK movement, I don't think the agriculturally-clad youngsters of nu-folk are about to start making petrol bombs. In sleepy London Town, there ain't no place for a street-fighting man. [color=#ffffff].[/color] [/quote] Agreed..... It is interesting to note that when a product seeks to appeal to the mainstream or more conservative elements of society, the advertisers use classical music whereas, if they want to appeal to young folk or more radical thinkers, its Jazz. Christopher Small's book 'Music of the Common Tounge' talks about this at length. Bottom line is, the soundtrack of the world's events is determined by the political intentions of those who are using the music. I suspect that, as each generation ages, their 'rock and roll' gradually turns into a conservative thread and the more radical elements of society needs to regroup. I guess that is why artist are generally free thinkers whereas establishment figures are more conservative. Or is that putting the cart before the horse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 It was interesting to see, with maybe one or two exceptions, how bush-blair war with iraq which was so unpopular was hardly mentioned in the mainstream music of the time. Music at the moment, broadly, culturally, is apolitical and backward looking. Even jazz become this safe background muzak divorced from any meaning- in our post modern culture music becomes just a style to be used divorced from any meaning. punk, jazz, hip hop- once powerful now all dead. and music often gets turned into money stymieing any power it has. So how can we break out of that? I think the internet will play a role. and it wouldn't surprise me if the idea of recorded music as a commodity died. Music will be a mainly live experience and in the community of the performance we will see meaning again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted April 20, 2012 Author Share Posted April 20, 2012 [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1334936419' post='1623777'] Music will be a mainly live experience and in the community of the performance we will see meaning again. [/quote] I like this, Luke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louisthebass Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 The last "angry young man" (from this side of the pond) was Weller. Although I like a lot of his solo work, he's never written a great political song since the early days of The Style Council. There's never been (IMO) a greater political songwriter since then, and I don't really see one coming up any time soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted April 20, 2012 Author Share Posted April 20, 2012 I guess the 5 major record companies would not release anything contentious; they are, by their very nature, conservative and wanting to maintain the status quo (not THE Status Quo!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 (edited) Personally I think the last/current 'angry young man' is Roughton Reynolds of Enter Shikari. Their previous album Common Dreads, drew from the invasion of Iraq and the subsequent political shenanigans. The current album rails against political corruption, the rich/poor divide, the oil trade and other issues facing normal people today. Well worth a listen. Seeing as the album got to no.4, a lot of people are hearing Shikari's message! Truckstop Edit: common dreads reached no.3 in the album charts and they are signed by Atlantic records. So maybe the problem is is that most protest music is rubbish! Edited April 20, 2012 by Truckstop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 oohh what about M.I.A. - mainstream and political- and youtube banned her video Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earbrass Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 There are already too many people shouting 'No'; shouting is all some people are capable of. Being angry and breaking things is easy. Building a better alternative, on the other hand, is hard, unglamorous work, which requires discipline, humility and an ability to compromise and understand others' points of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu-khag Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 (edited) this thread just reminded me of this song, [size=4]described as [color=#000000][font=sans-serif]the first great mainstream protest song in years by the old guardian paper.[/font][/color][/size] [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8GvLKTsTuI&feature=branded"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8GvLKTsTuI&feature=branded[/url] [url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2012/mar/15/plan-b-ill-manors"]http://www.guardian....an-b-ill-manors[/url] Edited April 20, 2012 by Stu-khag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 [quote name='louisthebass' timestamp='1334937153' post='1623788'] The last "angry young man" (from this side of the pond) was Weller. Although I like a lot of his solo work, he's never written a great political song since the early days of The Style Council. There's never been (IMO) a greater political songwriter since then, and I don't really see one coming up any time soon. [/quote] Have a listen to Stiff Little Fingers. Jake Burns is very good at writing a political song or two - and not just the material from the early days, right up until their last cd in 2003. Though they were always far less in the public eye as Weller, very similar feel in the lyrics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 A line from a Crosby, Stills and Nash song comes to mind... "It's been a long time coming... It's gonna be a long time gone..." ...but then again, I'm old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 [quote name='louisthebass' timestamp='1334937153' post='1623788'] The last "angry young man" (from this side of the pond) was Weller. Although I like a lot of his solo work, he's never written a great political song since the early days of The Style Council. There's never been (IMO) a greater political songwriter since then, and I don't really see one coming up any time soon. [/quote] Did Billy Bragg completely pass you by? Love him or hate him you can't deny he was both angry, young and political. And is still one of those things, and proposes alternatives now rather than just shouting no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1334940238' post='1623862'] There are already too many people shouting 'No'; shouting is all some people are capable of. Being angry and breaking things is easy. Building a better alternative, on the other hand, is hard, unglamorous work, which requires discipline, humility and an ability to compromise and understand others' points of view. [/quote] Oh, so the plus one. Thing is, it's entirely understandable that young people get all shouty and angry. It's what they're for, after all. To deny them their righteous, hormonally-driven fury would be to snap one's fingers at Mother Nature and to shear off a formative experience. But to make a life's work of putting anger at the heart of progress is self-defeating, simply because it's very difficult to reach a considered, sustainable compromise when one is all steamed up. No, I reserve what little scorn I have left for middle-aged gobsh*tes who prance around giving it the big angry I am, simply because it's more fun and easier than grinding out a deal that both sides can sign up to. Closer to home, contrast Mr Weller's profitless, undirected Sturm und Drang with Mr Bragg's cheerful disposition and sterling work with projects like Jail Guitar Doors and I think we all get the picture. Which is what m'learned friend Earbrass was saying, I suppose. Consider my post superfluous. [color=#ffffff].[/color] Edited April 21, 2012 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mog Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 [quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1334940238' post='1623862'] There are already too many people shouting 'No'; shouting is all some people are capable of. Being angry and breaking things is easy. Building a better alternative, on the other hand, is hard, unglamorous work, which requires discipline, humility and an ability to compromise and understand others' points of view. [/quote] I like that. There's no doubt that political/religious/racial etc. influences in music have produced some of the classics. What pisses me off is when it becomes commercialized and overmarketed. That's what happens over here with so called rebel songs which glorify the slaughter of innocents and twist political history to give it a more romantic sheen. That is not a good thing at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 As the marvelous Edwyn Collins puts it- "too many protest singers, not enough protest songs" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 The problem I have now with a lot of "protest songs" is that the lyrical content is incredibly clichéd and naive. Also the "angry young man" has been done to death. For me one of the best protest songs is Elvis Costello/Robert Wyatt's "Shipbuilding". It's not a song I'm massively fond of from a musical PoV, but I find the understatedness of the delivery and the fact that the lyrics don't immediately beat you around the head with their subject matter refreshing and far more effective at getting their point across. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 [quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1334965815' post='1624304'] ....Did Billy Bragg completely pass you by?.... [/quote] Yes, as he passed most people by. Bob Dylan didn't pass anyone by. He had some great songs but what did he achieve? Music was never a force for change. Occasionally it has run in parallel to other "forces for change" but has never instigated change. These days music is just wallpaper to most people in this country. Jazz wouldn't be on my list of "protest" movements, unless you count the Trad Jazz bands that played to the CND supporters in the 60's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 (edited) some interesting comments from Billy Corgan [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9TVc8Tob98[/media] Edited April 21, 2012 by steve-bbb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted April 21, 2012 Author Share Posted April 21, 2012 Kudos to Corgan. HIs point is legitimate. When I hear a musician saying 'no', I am not looking for someone who is seeking to topple Governments or anything like that, just to redress the balance away from vested interests that are funsamentally destructive. The idea of a concensus is entirely legitimate, I just think that, when the mainstream media represents a powerful minority, it is up to our artists to say 'no'. not with a knife at the throat of the offending few but is a way that promotes consideration. When you hear Billie Holiday's 'Strange Fruit', you can't but think about the issues she is singing about. I think protest songs/musics are like anything else that seeks to promote change; it works incrementally. If I write a piece of music that I play to one person in Felixstowe. its not going to go anywhere. If a 1,000 people in a 1,000 towns do the same, it starts to get noticed etc. What I think music can achieve is to promte ideas that will have been formed elsewhere but will need nurturing and sharing. Music is a great way to do that because it is a communal activity. Of course, the vested interests then take the artists and corrupt them but that is why the next wave of artists have to pick up the message. Its cyclical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janmaat Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1334933470' post='1623724'] The problem is that music is a tool and that tool can be wielded by anyone. For every Woody Guthrie and for every Marseillaise ([i]Aux Armes Citoyens![/i]) there is an Edward Elgar and a Horst Wessel Lied. Music can be a vehicle for repression as much as it can be a vehicle for change. [color=#ffffff].[/color] [/quote] Note that the nazi regime was extremely oppressive towards Jazz music in particular, and towards all sorts of artistic expression in general ("Gleichschaltung"). In the East German totalitarian regime, listening to the Rolling Stones was frowned upon and records hard to come by. I know a guy who's in prison in Iran for no other reason than playing the blues. If expression can change things, then music can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbird13 Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1334999658' post='1624496'] Music was never a force for change. Occasionally it has run in parallel to other "forces for change" but has never instigated change. These days music is just wallpaper to most people in this country. [/quote] This - I remember the 80's when every indie band seemed to be political ( red wedge anyone ) cant seem to rememeber it doing any good to Labour election chances. I suppose its nice for musicians to thnk tha they are so important that all they have to do is write a song about something and it will change it but TBH I dint think this has ever happened Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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