waldemar Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Hi all, On the strength of how pleased I am with the Shuttle 3.0 10" Combo, I've just bought a new Genz Benz Focus 210 Cab, the idea being that I continue to use the combo for practices/small gigs and roll out the additional 210 cab for greater headroom at bigger gigs - the 210 cab is an 8ohm cab (same as the combo) so when plugged into the additional speakon connector the Shuttle 3 amp delivers its full 300 watts. So, here's the dumb question. When pushing the combo hard on its own at 150/175 watts, the driver eventually runs out of steam, so if the amp's delivering 300 watts, and I increase the volume, isn't the driver in the combo still going to running out of steam in the same place..? Or is volume and clarity acheived because of the fact that the 300 watts the amp is producing are being used to drive 3 10" speakers which aren't actually working as hard but are together pushing a greater volume of air..? As a side note, I've noticed that the combo speaker is a little bit hissy when the amp is turned up loud and the treble is set high. Not so with the Focus cab, even with the tweeter on. Normal? Not really an issue in a real world scenario, but I'm curious as to why this happens. Anyway, here's a pic of my new rig. [attachment=105818:genz_rig.jpg] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 The speaker will run out of steam when it is recieving the same power, but you'll have more volume from the more speakers. The issue you might have is you won't hear it running out of steam, because if I'm looking at this right, you have one 8 ohm speaker, and two 16ohm/4ohm ones, wired in such a way that half the output of the amp will be shared between them, whilst the single speaker takes teh other half, leaving the problem that it will run out of steam whilst the others are at half power. This means you are both wasting the potential of the pair of rivers an their output will make that of the complaining single speaker. That said, put the stacked so you have a single line of speakers vertically, and you'll hear the top one complaining easy enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldemar Posted April 23, 2012 Author Share Posted April 23, 2012 Hi Mr. Foxen - thanks for your post. So, am I right in thinking that this is more of an efficiency issue with how I want to use this - ie. 1. I may as well have bought an additional 110 8ohms or 2. I'd be better off using the Shuttle 3.0 head at 175 watts to drive the 210 cab on its own or (better still) 3. I should have bought a 4ohm 210 cab to make better use of the 300 watts the Shuttle 3.0 head is capable of delivering..? What's confusing me a bit is that the Shuttle 3.0-10T combo is marketed as a 175watt as a combo, or a 300watt with an optional extension cab - so if I had bought an extra 8ohm 10" cab (as in option 1 above) and ran the amp at 300w, wouldn't I still be in the same boat (pushing two drivers too hard) despite GB marketing the package as a 300w solution..? Weird - I bought the 210 from a very well respected (by myself and most here) vendor, and despite me being flexible on other options available he had no problem in recommending this particular configuration. I'm not sure that I'll need to ever play it loud enough for this to cause me issues, but I can't help but feel that my purchase could have been better researched (advised...?!) Ah well. 2 gigs next weekend. We shall see! w./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 Don't fuss too much over watts. More of the same speakers (different impedance individual speakers means they are different) are the way for more volume and same tone. If it is loud enough as is, its fine, as long at you exercise a little caution. Less speakers is pretty much never going to be a win, but the main thing to do is use what you have best, and that means stacking in a vertical line, maybe turning the lower one to face the rummer or whoever needs a good idea of what you are playing, top one facing you so you'll know if it gets upset. Does teh head to to 2ohm? if not, a 4ohm cab would require disabling the internal speaker, probably not a good call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldemar Posted April 23, 2012 Author Share Posted April 23, 2012 The head won't go to 2ohms, but disconnecting the combo speaker is very easy (it connects via a 1/4" around the back). The head is designed to be easily removed and used with whatever cab you care to plug it in to... that's why I'm thinking that a 4ohm cab capable of 300watts would have been a better option - just a bit strange that the configuration I've ended up with was recommended when it might not have been the best option available. Maybe I'm just over-thinking the whole thing..! If I have to use the amp at 175watts driving only the 210 then I'm sure it'll do the job. If it works as a 300watt stack, then so much the better. Cheers. w./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 Assuming its two 16 ohm speakers in the 2x10 (which isn't a great assumption, but for hypothetical ideal scenario), best scenario is a 16ohm speaker in the 1x10, so you can have three tens with equal distribution of power totaling 5.3ohm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcro Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 Hi Waldemar, I think you've made the best decision. With the both speaker cabinets connected the amp will be operating into a 4 Ohm load. Therefore, potentially a maximum of 150 watts will go into each speaker. As only 150 watts is available to the 1x10, it probably wont reach the point of "running out of steam". Result, longer life of speaker. [i] "Or is volume and clarity acheived because of the fact that the 300 watts the amp is producing are being used to drive 3 10" speakers which aren't actually working as hard but are together pushing a greater volume of air..?"[/i] Yes, and there will be some extra clarity at very high volume levels because the 1x10 will be less stressed. As a result there will be less internal "compression" and distortion from the loudspeaker drive unit. Meanwhile the 2x10 will be operating at a comfortable level. Re alignment - I agree with Mr Foxen. Balcro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldemar Posted April 23, 2012 Author Share Posted April 23, 2012 Cheers guys. I'll give it a proper workout at practice on Thursday! w./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 If you want to push an amp to its max then you should have bought a bigger amp. A car engine won't last long if you drive it everywhere at max revs. Same with amps and speakers. The 210 should work well with the combo but for loud gigs I'd save up for another 210 and detach the amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldemar Posted April 23, 2012 Author Share Posted April 23, 2012 Hi Chris, Yeah - agreed with you on that - thing is, I don't think I'll ever need much more than what I already have (most of what I play is blues/soul in relatively small spaces) - I was more curious about how a driver that could get stressed by a 175watt amp could function as part of a 300watt set-up and also whether or not I'd done the right thing by going for the 210 extension. Once again, probably over thinking the whole thing by imagining using the rig in very unlikely high volume scenarios - the volume will probably never go past 12o'clock..! Cheers. w./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 I think the best bet would have been to get a 4 ohm 2x10 or 2x12 for larger gigs (and take the head out) or for smaller gigs, use the combo on its own with good PA support. The problem is, that little 1x10 combo will run out of steam, (both the amp and the speaker) but what you have is a super small super light package, and something had to give I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mart Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote name='waldemar' timestamp='1335181936' post='1626743'] Hi Chris, Yeah - agreed with you on that - thing is, I don't think I'll ever need much more than what I already have (most of what I play is blues/soul in relatively small spaces) - I was more curious about how a driver that could get stressed by a 175watt amp could function as part of a 300watt set-up and also whether or not I'd done the right thing by going for the 210 extension. Once again, probably over thinking the whole thing by imagining using the rig in very unlikely high volume scenarios - the volume will probably never go past 12o'clock..! Cheers. w./ [/quote] You've had a lot of expert answers and I don't want to undermine anything they've said, but I think there's a fairly simple-minded point that may help. You ask how "...a driver that could get stressed by a 175watt amp could function as part of a 300watt set-up"? Well, when you just use your 10" cab, it handles about 175 watts fairly happily. When you connect your other cab as well, then, at max, you're sort of getting about 150 watts from the 10" and another 150 from the other cab. So you get 300 watts in total, but you're not asking your 10" cab for more than it supplies when it's on its own. That's a rough explanation of how a 175 watt driver works in a 300 watt situation. But this simple-minded explanation assumes the load is balanced between the two cabs and it does sound like yours won't be quite that simple. But maybe understanding this simple scenario will help you get a handle on what your rig is doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 Remember the 175w rating on a cab is thermal only, but bass pushes the excursion limit, which depends on frequency, and the relevant minimum is probably around half of the thermal limit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 I use a 2x12" and 1x12", which is kind of the same as what you've got just with bigger drivers. Yeah so one speaker gets twice as much power as the others, so what? Turn it down if the top one starts to complain and you'll be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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