Di sound tips. How to help the sound man?

[BassInMyFace]

Hi folks, been gigging alot with my new custom shop armstrong magnetic pup. Sounds great through my amp even at ridiculous volume, almost entirely feedback free!

Problems start when sound man takes di and is useless at eq ing bass. Last recording from desk sounds like my bass is a ukelele made of tin. (slight exaggeration there)

In a perfect world all sound guys would be committed and knowledgeable, and ask house systems would sound great. not a world I recognise though!

Is there anything I can do to help? Realise this could just as easy be in electric bass forum but wonder if you folks have any top tips. Post eq signals aren't usually liked are they? I could send di from dha preamp but still doesn't address how sound man will then eq signal. Also random venue stages are notorious for having poor monitoring so no idea how it sounds out front to make adjustments on the fly.

Of the opinion that this is just the lottery we all have to face when playing random venues without a dedicated sound crew. Aaaah to hit the big time hey!?

Any ideas gratefully received.

[chris_b]

If you have pre and post DI the FOH guy will probably want the pre but if you know the post DI sounds better then insist he use that.

You could aalso insist he use a mike on the speaker cab.

[bassace]

I usually DI from pre eq and ask the sound man to go easy on the bass, mainly middle and top, and nothing through the monitors please. Last time I was DI'd I said to the sound man 'please make it sound like a double bass' - and he did!

[fatback]

As bassace says, asking him to cut the lows should help. Other than that, pray his hearing still half functions. Not very likely.

[marvin spangles]

I just say leave everything flat or perhaps roll a little of the bass off if needed. Most times I have no complaints. I take a di out of an A I Focus. I usually fix the 'gain' at around 5-7 and use the Master to balance with the on stage instruments.

[51m0n]

You are entirely at his mercy.

However a few tips, give him a pre-eq feed, simply because whatever you do to make the soudn work in your monitoring equiptment, be that a bass amp or IEM or whatever, almost certainly will not translate into the PA.

Stop your backline feeding back. If your amp feeds back, then Mr FOH is stuffed. Because you are pumping that signal down the DI into his rig, result, he'll knock you out of the mix because there is nothing else he can do, its your rig causing the issue.

If you put a feedback destroyer in your amp fx loop way after theFOH DI then that will not change the signal Mr FOH gets, but it should help you deal with feedback if its an issue.

Ultimately though you are lost if he doesnt know what a double bass should sound like, if he is unfamiliar with the genre or if he is limited by the venue acoustics. You can do everything right, have a great engineer and still the FOH in some venues can be disastrous, simply due to acoustics.

Edited April 24, 2012 by 51m0n

[chris_b]

I know it doesn’t help, but I saw Little Feat at the Shepherds Bush Empire and they had the worse sound and balance that I’ve ever heard. Bad FOH can happen at every level.

Do you know what the audience was hearing when your “bad” recording was made? If they were getting a good mix then you were ok inspite of the bad recording.

Unless the sound engineer has a very expensive system, recording off the desk is never going to be "studio quality" and it will sound different to the FOH mix. That's not what most FOH systems are designed to do, so the engineer might not have recording studio type facilities and eq, but if he’s doing his job properly his main concern will be getting a good sound and balance “out front” and not “doing a recording for the band”.

I always use sound desk recordings for reference purposes only, ie dynamics of the band, checking arrangements, timing, tuning etc, but as you say, at the end of the day if you play at semi pro gigs with semi pro engineers you do have a lottery. Part of the learning process is to rise above it all and know that you've given a good performance inspite of everything else that was going wrong.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1335260780' post='1628012']
I know it doesn’t help, but I saw Little Feat at the Shepherds Bush Empire and they had the worse sound and balance that I’ve ever heard. [/quote]

The Empire is notorious for having some of the worst acoustics in London.

I've seen loads of bands there, and the only place that you ever get a decent sound is within 20 feet of the sound desk. The real sweet spot is the two little "wings" that project out alongside the bar, over-hanging the sound desk.

Up in the Circle at the Empire, there is nowhere ... no single place ... where the sound quality is anything other than crap. I once spent an entire Walter Trout gig moving around the balcony out of sheer idle curiosity, working on the assumption that random statistics meant there must be [i][b]somewhere [/b][/i]up there that would allow me to hear the band properly.

Nope.

[Hector]

[quote name='bassace' timestamp='1335205463' post='1627296']
I usually DI from pre eq and ask the sound man to go easy on the bass, mainly middle and top, and nothing through the monitors please. Last time I was DI'd I said to the sound man 'please make it sound like a double bass' - and he did!
[/quote]

This is pure distilled good advice. Talking politely to the sound guy about what you'd like (so long as you know, I agree with the ace about rolling off on the bass and prefer to have my own onstage sound that I can fiddle with) is the best thing that, within your power, can be done.

Stay friends with them, even if they get it dreadfully wrong! Basses are tough to amplify so I'm sure they tried, and it's always good to have the sound guys on your side.

[bassace]

[quote name='Hector' timestamp='1335261628' post='1628036']
Stay friends with them, even if they get it dreadfully wrong! Basses are tough to amplify so I'm sure they tried, and it's always good to have the sound guys on your side.
[/quote]

Too right! Always on a gig, be sure to make friends with the sound man - and the caterers. Then the rest is easy.

[bassicinstinct]

[quote name='bassace' timestamp='1335264925' post='1628151']
Too right! Always on a gig, be sure to make friends with the sound man - and the caterers. Then the rest is easy.
[/quote]

I usually buy the sound guy a pint.

Worth every penny IMHO.

[BassInMyFace]

[quote name='bassace' timestamp='1335264925' post='1628151']
Too right! Always on a gig, be sure to make friends with the sound man - and the caterers. Then the rest is easy.
[/quote]

this could turn into a whole different discussion! how often is it that you turn up at a venue to be received by a surly, uninterested, often rude sound guy? what is it about the job that either (a) attract b*stards or ( turns you into one? it cant be that bad can it? hanging out at venues, working in an industry i assume theyre at least interested in and being paid for the privilege. its hardly forced labour is it??

anyways, appreciate the advice, and tbh by all accounts the front of house bass sound wasnt too bad. i was just surprised to hear such a thin DI tone from the direct recording. not too shocking when you consider it was likely a pre eq DI signal i suppose.

[chris_b]

[quote name='BassInMyFace' timestamp='1335345353' post='1629457']
....what is it about the job that either (a) attract b*stards or ( turns you into one?....
[/quote]

Day in day out dealing with petulant, rude and immature bands is where I'd start with an explanation.

[tommyjamesallen]

Play acoustic.

[51m0n]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1335346802' post='1629488']
Day in day out dealing with petulant, rude and immature bands is where I'd start with an explanation.
[/quote]

+100 Its a deeply tedious job when you get a bunch of arrogant hairstyles on a stage pretending they are all rock gods with less knowledge about their craft than the average squirrel, giving you an impossible job and hurting your ears, for not much money and extremely long hours (esp on a touring set up).

If the band listen to and help the soundguy, treat him with respect and are pleasant then the chances are that you'll get the best out of him (whatever that may be), and the best out of the venue.

[ZMech]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1335257920' post='1627923']
Ultimately though you are lost if he doesnt know what a double bass should sound like
[/quote]
Wondering whether it would be a good idea or seen as pompous to ask that he just listens to you play a few notes acoustically first. What do you guys reckon? I know it'll depend mostly on the sound guy, but my experience is limited...

[51m0n]

Oh absolutely, if he's worth his beans he wont mind hearing your instrument acoustically first, all db's sound fairly different, and hearing it 'for real' can help.

Or he may just be bemused at the thought, which you should see as a bit of a warning of what is to come....

[iiipopes]

1) Make sure the instrument is set up properly with all repairs from road wear done, the pickup is properly installed and functioning, strings are in good order, and there is a good clean line out.
2) Make sure it has the proper impedance buffering for the type of pickup so a clean signal gets to the board.
3) Start flat and run a test pattern up and down the neck to see how the characteristics are coming through so everyone can get an idea of what kind and how much eq may be necessary.
4) Usually less eq is better, but some basses, some rooms, and sometimes the desired characteristic for the track will indicate more.
5) At least some compression is a must, but it should be used just as a salt shaker. A little really enhances the flavor of the track, too much and it, well....

Edited April 25, 2012 by iiipopes

[Hector]

[quote name='iiipopes' timestamp='1335366448' post='1629977']
1) Make sure the instrument is set up properly with all repairs from road wear done, the pickup is properly installed and functioning, strings are in good order, and there is a good clean line out.
2) Make sure it has the proper impedance buffering for the type of pickup so a clean signal gets to the board.
3) Start flat and run a test pattern up and down the neck to see how the characteristics are coming through so everyone can get an idea of what kind and how much eq may be necessary.
4) Usually less eq is better, but some basses, some rooms, and sometimes the desired characteristic for the track will indicate more.
5) At least some compression is a must, but it should be used just as a salt shaker. A little really enhances the flavor of the track, too much and it, well....
[/quote]

Fab post!

I wonder if number 4 is related to my tendency to cut certain frequencies to find a live tone that I like? I know my bass has naturally got a lot of bottom, and that can sometimes cause a poorly-defined tone in rooms that are naturally a bit boomy.

[ironside1966]

The first thing to ask is, is the recording a accurate representation of the actual live sound? The sound of the backline doesn't stop suddenly at the end of the stage. I work with the stage sound rather than against it, the clue is in the word sound reinforcement not sound replacement. Often there is enough bottom end coming from the stage amplification so you need to EQ some mid's to give the instrument more definition.
Telling a sound man his job is a bit like a sound man telling you how to play.

[51m0n]

[quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1335377131' post='1630227']
The first thing to ask is, is the recording a accurate representation of the actual live sound? The sound of the backline doesn't stop suddenly at the end of the stage. I work with the stage sound rather than against it, the clue is in the word sound reinforcement not sound replacement. Often there is enough bottom end coming from the stage amplification so you need to EQ some mid's to give the instrument more definition.
Telling a sound man his job is a bit like a sound man telling you how to play.
[/quote]

+1 Doesnt mean he might not want to hear your bass first, but this is sage advice

[geoffbassist]

If I'm on upright my most common request is to turn the bass down in the front of house. It's often the same with the bass drum as they are generally more used to rock/pop bands and not so much jazz/big band/shows etc. I also occasionally use a high pass filter pre di if necessary.

Most discussion regards monitoring which is my main priority. Anything front of house is their job so i just let them get on with it and keep my fingers crossed.
It's always great when you have a sound engineer who knows how to get a fantastic sound.

[oggiesnr]

I have been to more ruined gigs where all I can hear is the drum and bass than I can count.

IMHO it should be a requirement that all soundmen play an instrument. All the best one's I have come across do.

Steve

[ironside1966]

I find it strange that you have to ask a sound man if He wants to listen to your amp , they should do that naturally if the circumstances permit. When setting the gains I listen to the instrument and gradually pull up the fader and compare them both and they shouldn't be far off.

Edited April 25, 2012 by ironside1966

[ironside1966]

I hate that too, that what I call a musicians mix, I have never been asked by a non musician to turn the kick or bass up but some musicians don't seem happy unless the kick is flapping your trousers.