deals outside of ebay :/

[Stacker]

I quite agree with sellers who pull auctions and make succesful deals ex-ebay. However, it can also backfire, when your seller double-crosses you and sells his item to someone else, again ex-ebay!!

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1335980391' post='1639065']
Cancelled bids and such show up on their profile. Ebay get negi about it after a while.
[/quote]

Didn't mention cancelled bids, that's different alltogether, and is nowt to do with shill bidding.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1335984896' post='1639196']
Well if it's an honest bidder who ever puts the highest bid on win. So it doesn't matter. And shillers don't usually put a big heavy bid on way over the highest bid anyway, like I said they tend to go up in small increments otherwise they put their item up too high to sell. Especially done in the last minutes of an auction without time to cancel.

It's just a tool to take away some of the likely hood of someone bidding the item up just to get a few extra coins. Wheres the problem?
[/quote]

Shilling is simply not giving your item away. The normal, and correct way is to have a start price of your reserve. However, if the start price is set too high, then it may attract no bidders, and even no watchers. Shilling falsely shows an item having genuine interest, which may invoke someones interest for that reason. Its all bollox though, as no-one loses out. The item sells to the highest bidder regardless, if it sells to someone's shilling buddy, then no-one pays anything, the seller doesnt let his item go for less than he wants, and no-one gets ripped off. I disagree with it entirely, but i don't get why some folk have such an objection. Its an auction, if you make the highest bid, you win, regardless of shilling.

I just don't understand why sellers do it, if your reserve is £300, advertise it at £350 BIN with offers, that way you find the true value, if the highest offer you receive is £250, then thats its value at that given time. It's not brain surgery.

[Rick's Fine '52]

The worst thing about eBay, which I've seen alot, especially on high end guitars is this;

Say a bass is currently sitting at £4k, I'm the highest bidder and my max bid is £8k. Someone (A genuine buyer), will get a friend with an account to make a huge bid (Way over its value), lets say £50k, the high bid will then be £8050, and they will be the new highest bidder. They then instantly know that my highest bid is £8000. They then cancel the bid, stating they 'entered the wrong amount', which is shown, and people will see the £50k bid was wrong and cancelled reasonably. The bid then go's back to £4k, but the other buyer in competition with me, knows my max (For the moment at least), is £8k. It does give an unfair view, which I've seen dozens of times. Impossible to prove, but shady nonetheless.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1335993661' post='1639353']
For me it's because it's not a genuine sale. If you get my drift.

If you put a car through a car auction are you allowed to bid up your own motor? you'd get fairly short change if you did. It's not really No one Loses out scenario as you are supposed to be bidding against another potential buyer. Not the seller trying to make extra coinage artificially increasing the selling price.
[/quote]

At a car auction, you state a reserve.

Theres no artificially increasing the price. Its just another way of ensuring an item meets the sellers minimum bid, or reserve price. You can do that by setting a reserve, or starting the auction at your reserve price. Or you can do it by shilling, which is not in the spirit of the bidding process, but the system allows it. Don't get me wrong, I am totally against it, but its just another way, it doesn't put the price up. No-ones naive enough to think a seller will let his £1000 guitar go for £300, because he forgot to put a reserve on!!

eBay actually monitors bidders who regularly bid on a particular sellers items. I know this because many years ago, I was a big Stone Roses memorabilia collector and used to buy lots of items from the same seller who had loads of top stuff. eBay opened an enquiry into it, which was good to see. Was all fine, as we could prove payments made via Paypal for the items, but they do check.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Rick's Fine '52

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1335993431' post='1639344']
The worst thing about eBay, which I've seen alot, especially on high end guitars is this;

Say a bass is currently sitting at £4k, I'm the highest bidder and my max bid is £8k. Someone (A genuine buyer), will get a friend with an account to make a huge bid (Way over its value), lets say £50k, the high bid will then be £8050, and they will be the new highest bidder. They then instantly know that my highest bid is £8000. They then cancel the bid, stating they 'entered the wrong amount', which is shown, and people will see the £50k bid was wrong and cancelled reasonably. The bid then go's back to £4k, but the other buyer in competition with me, knows my max (For the moment at least), is £8k. It does give an unfair view, which I've seen dozens of times. Impossible to prove, but shady nonetheless.
[/quote]

I've seen this too, but there may be ways to deal with it. For example:

If Rick colludes with Dave (name picked at random), then Dave can place a £7000 bid. Meanwhile, Rick uses Auction Sniper or similar to place a last-second bid at £8000.

When BadGuy #2 places his silly £50k bid, bidding goes temporarily to £7050 and BadGuy #1 now thinks he need only place a £7100 bid to win.

Sense? Or barking?

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1335994314' post='1639366']
I've seen this too, but there may be ways to deal with it. For example:

If Rick colludes with Dave (name picked at random), then Dave can place a £7000 bid. Meanwhile, Rick uses Auction Sniper or similar to place a last-second bid at £8000.

When BadGuy #2 places his silly £50k bid, bidding goes temporarily to £7050 and BadGuy #1 now thinks he need only place a £7100 bid to win.

Sense? Or barking?
[/quote]

Never heard of auction sniper, so I'm a bit lost?? Guessing its software to protect your maximum bid, and only disclose it in increments??

Not sure I'd trust it if I was bidding top money on something I really wanted though?

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1335994565' post='1639375']
Don't need to. Just like don't need to on Ebay.
[/quote]

But you can't shill at a car auction!! You can have a friend bid on it for you though, same thing.

I think you're missing the point though. Shilling is basically bidding, as someone else said. No-one loses, except eBay on the fee's.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1335993661' post='1639353']
If you put a car through a car auction are you allowed to bid up your own motor? you'd get fairly short change if you did.
[/quote]

Wrong! For a lot of years I bought cars at car auctions (for my own personal use) and on one occasion I sold a car at auction and I was told by the auction house (a major national) that if my car was put into their auction (it wasn't a young enough car to qualify for the allowance of a reserve) that I could bid my car up and if I was the highest bidder that I just needed to instruct the staff who take the deposits that it was my car and they would put the car through the next auction. Now if I was being told that I could do that, then your little back street garage must have been doing it for years. That is FACT! It certainly opened my eyes to the fact that bidding off the wall wasn't the worst practice at car auctions.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1335995153' post='1639383']
If the auctioneer doesn't know who put the car in yes you can shill your own car. If you are mates with the auctioneer you can shill your own car going through. I know I have seen it.

How is it no one loses. If the shiller gets it right they artificially inflate the place. At an auction it's the market place that sets the price. So if you have one genuine bidder it goes low. 2 genuine bidders it goes higher. When someone shills you only have one genuine bidder. You are not bidding against another genuine buyer you bidding against someone who wants more money for their sale. Thats not an auction thats haggling. The amount you pay goes up and they hope they don't ask too much incase you walk off. It's also illegal but if your fine with illegal activities on ebay fair enough.
[/quote]

I'm not fine with it at all, I'm just not naive. Its not artificially inflating, its just a way of the seller ensuring it meets his reserve. This isnt hard to grasp, surely people arent that naive? Are you winding me up??

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1335995234' post='1639386']
Wrong! For a lot of years I bought cars at car auctions (for my own personal use) and on one occasion I sold a car at auction and I was told by the auction house (a major national) that if my car was put into their auction (it wasn't a young enough car to qualify for the allowance of a reserve) that I could bid my car up and if I was the highest bidder that I just needed to instruct the staff who take the deposits that it was my car and they would put the car through the next auction. Now if I was being told that I could do that, then your little back street garage must have been doing it for years. That is FACT! It certainly opened my eyes to the fact that bidding off the wall wasn't the worst practice at car auctions.
[/quote]

Indeed.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1335993431' post='1639344']
The worst thing about eBay, which I've seen alot, especially on high end guitars is this;

Say a bass is currently sitting at £4k, I'm the highest bidder and my max bid is £8k. Someone (A genuine buyer), will get a friend with an account to make a huge bid (Way over its value), lets say £50k, the high bid will then be £8050, and they will be the new highest bidder. They then instantly know that my highest bid is £8000. They then cancel the bid, stating they 'entered the wrong amount', which is shown, and people will see the £50k bid was wrong and cancelled reasonably. The bid then go's back to £4k, but the other buyer in competition with me, knows my max (For the moment at least), is £8k. It does give an unfair view, which I've seen dozens of times. Impossible to prove, but shady nonetheless.
[/quote]

Biding last minute doesn't stop that. They can still put in their 50k max bid right at the start, and you won't know its a 50k, you'll just be outbid by a 8050 bid when you put your 8k max. All it means doing it last minute is that you won't have won the item for the price you offered. Still be a typoed max bid, maybe you'll get a second chance offer, maybe someone will get an off ebay offer in. Put in your offer early = best chance of winning up to your price.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1335995630' post='1639399']
It is artificial. Two people bidding means two people want the item want the item. 1 person bidding means one person wants it and the sale price reflects that. 1 false bidder is artificially raising the price because it's not two buyers going at it. If there is one person interested in buying then there would be no one to bid against to put the price up.

If they want a set price set a reserve. Not use illegal means.


[/quote]

I agree, but you must realise that the end result is the same, whichever method the seller chooses to use to reach his reserve.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1335995901' post='1639408']
Biding last minute doesn't stop that. They can still put in their 50k max bid right at the start, and you won't know its a 50k, you'll just be outbid by a 8050 bid when you put your 8k max. All it means doing it last minute is that you won't have won the item for the price you offered. Still be a typoed max bid, maybe you'll get a second chance offer, maybe someone will get an off ebay offer in. Put in your offer early = best chance of winning up to your price.
[/quote]

Yeah but that won't happen, people doing it will wait for the last opportunity to withdraw a bid (12 hours), otherwise the system is pointless. They wait until most serious bidders have their cards in, wait until 12 hours before end, put in the big bid, to see what the bids are, how its stacking up, then withdraw. By putting in the big bid first, you just watch people slowly add to theirs, but if they arent getting anywhere, they'll probably give up. It would also look highly suspicious if you withdrew a bid for 'entering the wrong amount' 7 days after making it. The point I made works, and occurs when you make the big bid, pretend you entered it wrongly, and immediately withdraw it, looks like a genuine mistake.

[guildbass]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1335940908' post='1638235']
It's swings and roundabouts. I recently pulled my Parker Fly bass from ebay as I was offered a very good price for it by an ebayer; subsequently when I ended the listing he went cold and backed out of the deal. However, an Ibanez bass that I had listed same day I left to run, despite some interest but not great bidding it went for £150 more than I had offered it to somebody on here for!

I have to confess that I will not show my hand on a bass that I am interested in until the last seconds... we all have our own ways of doing things but I prefer to pay as little as possible!

I should qualify the above; if you/everyone bids early on a bass it can and does induce certain types of people to revise their bids up even though they have set a maximum (they psychologically have taken ownership of the bass and don't want anyone to get it). However if you don't reveal interest in a bass, the type of person mentioned previously, doesn't feel compelled to rethink their price as they remain confident that they will get ownership at the amount that they put in. It's all 'headology' in the world of auctions/buying/selling!
[/quote]that's exactly what i think, and i sell loads of bikes on ebay...i always start at 99p to get bidders to establish 'ownership' and I'm always pleased when someone bids up past the psychological barrier prices. On a good bicycle that barrier will be £100. Below £100 people b id in tiny increments...just wasting each other's time. Above the ton, bidders know what the bike is and know what they want to pay,,,

here's one of mine...99p start... [url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251049218049?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649#ht_2111wt_1185"]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251049218049?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649#ht_2111wt_1185[/url]

It got over the £100 threshold in 24 hours and this one may well get past £200...We'll see!

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1335996218' post='1639416']
If an auction has a reserve on it fair enough.

But to start low then have a false bidding war to push the price up is not right. Thats trying to push the price up as high as possible not get simply what they want IMO.
[/quote]

Your implying it pushes the price beyond its true value. Not true, never gonna happen. Call it a false bidding war, call it shilling, call it what you like, its just the seller using a method to reach his reserve. It generates more bids (False or not), more watchers (Because it normally starts at 99p), and more genuine bidders, who will all have a go. But the end result is it sells for its value, if that's a genuine bidder then great, if its his mate the shiller, then it doesn't sell, no-one dies. No-one pays over the odds, unless their dumb, in which case their bid was higher than its real value....not the sellers fault??

I have nothing more to add.

[Mr. Foxen]

I don't know why people bid on items if they think the seller is dishonest. I try and block any bidders who are being dishonest. Rather not deal with them.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1335997176' post='1639443']
I don't know why people bid on items if they think the seller is dishonest. I try and block any bidders who are being dishonest. Rather not deal with them.
[/quote]

It wouldn't bother me, couldn't care less, if i want it, then i bid, if i meet his reserve, and i end up the winner, and i'm happy with the price, i couldn't care less if he had someone shilling it. I know what its worth to me, and that's my max bid, if i beat a shiller or a genuine bidder on the way, i'll probably never know, and it makes no odds, i get my item for a price i'm happy with, otherwise i wouldn't have made the bid.

How do you know a bidder is a dishonest one. Did you win a crystal ball in an on-line auction?? (I hope you didn't pay over the odds?)

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1335997589' post='1639451']
How do you know a bidder is a dishonest one. Did you win a crystal ball in an on-line auction?? (I hope you didn't pay over the odds?)
[/quote]

Everyone who does all these attempts to game the system must be assuming it, otherwise they wouldn't bother. I can tell bidders are dishonest when they message me after the auction saying they were planning to bid last minute and didn't realise I start my auctions at 3am for exactly that purpose, or often message me saying they'll last minute bid. Then I block them and they'll have to buy it direct, or if I remember, up the start price. I'd rather not sell via ebay anyway.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1335997842' post='1639454']
Everyone who does all these attempts to game the system must be assuming it, otherwise they wouldn't bother. I can tell bidders are dishonest when they message me after the auction saying they were planning to bid last minute and didn't realise I start my auctions at 3am for exactly that purpose, or often message me saying they'll last minute bid. Then I block them and they'll have to buy it direct, or if I remember, up the start price. I'd rather not sell via ebay anyway.
[/quote]

Oh, fair enough if they are asking suspicious questions.

I personally wouldn't have a problem with someone saying they would bid last minute, apparently 90% of ebayers do, so if you're advertising on eBay, you should work to their market. eBay still exposes your product to the biggest market, for the lowest fee. I think for the exposure you get, its remarkable value. I've never failed to sell anything on eBay, and never sold anything on BC for example. We all have different experiences though eh?

Edited May 2, 2012 by Rick's Fine '52

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1335998414' post='1639463']
eBay still exposes your product to the biggest market, for the lowest price.
[/quote]

I've no interest in lowest prices. I want highest price for my stuff.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1335998657' post='1639469']
I've no interest in lowest prices. I want highest price for my stuff.
[/quote]

Touche

[Musky]

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1335996536' post='1639425']
Your implying it pushes the price beyond its true value. Not true, never gonna happen. Call it a false bidding war, call it shilling, call it what you like, its just the seller using a method to reach his reserve. It generates more bids (False or not), more watchers (Because it normally starts at 99p), and more genuine bidders, who will all have a go. But the end result is it sells for its value, if that's a genuine bidder then great, if its his mate the shiller, then it doesn't sell, no-one dies. No-one pays over the odds, unless their dumb, in which case their bid was higher than its real value....not the sellers fault??

I have nothing more to add.
[/quote]
The problem here is assuming their is a 'true value'. That's not always the case.

When you're dealing with, say, a '73 Precision in good condition you've got a fair idea of it's value - enough of them are sold for anyone diligent enough to estimate a ball park price. But something like an Egmond B2V? Not sought after, nor enough sold to guage the market. The true value is what someone is prepared to pay for it, at that moment [i]on that particular auction[/i]. If the seller has no idea of it's value he might start the bidding beyond what a limited market might want to pay for it, and it'll go unsold. Too low a start and he won't maximise his return. So he can test the market by incrementally lowering his starting price (a slow, time consuming strategy) or he can just shill the auction.

The result isn't that it sells for it's value (at that precise time and place) but that the seller maximises his return on something he has little idea of the value of. If the value of goods are determined in the market place, shill bidding skews that market. You can argue that you only bid what you are prepared to pay, but that's not the reality of auctions - as many people will evidence in the cold light of day.

If you're the only person in the market for something, it becomes a simple transaction between you and the seller. If the seller adds ringers into the equation, it loads the terms of the transaction in favour of the vendor.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1336000490' post='1639497']
The problem here is assuming their is a 'true value'. That's not always the case.

When you're dealing with, say, a '73 Precision in good condition you've got a fair idea of it's value - enough of them are sold for anyone diligent enough to estimate a ball park price. But something like an Egmond B2V? Not sought after, nor enough sold to guage the market. The true value is what someone is prepared to pay for it, at that moment [i]on that particular auction[/i]. If the seller has no idea of it's value he might start the bidding beyond what a limited market might want to pay for it, and it'll go unsold. Too low a start and he won't maximise his return. So he can test the market by incrementally lowering his starting price (a slow, time consuming strategy) or he can just shill the auction.

The result isn't that it sells for it's value (at that precise time and place) but that the seller maximises his return on something he has little idea of the value of. If the value of goods are determined in the market place, shill bidding skews that market. You can argue that you only bid what you are prepared to pay, but that's not the reality of auctions - as many people will evidence in the cold light of day.

If you're the only person in the market for something, it becomes a simple transaction between you and the seller. If the seller adds ringers into the equation, it loads the terms of the transaction in favour of the vendor.
[/quote]

If I had something unusual to sell, with no true market rate, but a feint idea, then just say so in the ad. State in the sub-title 'make an offer - must sell', then state in the description that you don't know its value, and make an offer, then at the end of the auction, you can review bids, and then you'll know.

We're not splitting atoms here.

I agree with you that shilling has a use though, even if its a slightly different one! And I don't approve of it by the way, as i've been saying all along.

[Mr. Foxen]

I don't think shilling with any significance happens nearly as much as people assume. Mostly there are a lot of people who don't understand the set a max bid and Ebay bids by proxy concept. Especially with the regular free listings, no-one is prevented from starting where they want to start from. Pulling the listing and relisting higher is probably a bigger deal. I've had a guy threaten to come and punch me if I didn't drop my starting price. For some reason ebay wouldn't kick him off.