Speaker size?

[Pinball]

I'm confused, as a bass novice I always thought bass speakers were big e.g 12 or 15* and now I'm looking around trying to find something on a budget I keep coming across smaller sizes. To be honest I'm a bit lost in terms of what to buy.

Two questions:
1. As someone playing rock and blues on a 4 stringer should I be sticking to larger speakers or are something like 10's worth considering?

2. Is the variations in speaker sizes a result of more 5 and 6 string basses being used or has it always been that way,

Any advice greatly appreciated.

[xgsjx]

Speaker size has little to do with the amount of bass it can produce, that's the cab's job. 10" drivers give a better dispersion than 15".

[Musky]

10" speakers have always been used for bass - the Fender Bassman used a 4x10 configuration.

It's not so much the speaker's diameter that matters as the overall design of the speakers and cab. Take a look at [url="http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/speaker-size-frequency-response.htm"]this[/url] for a good explanation.

[JTUK]

Answer to question 1. 10"s are definitely worth considering.. and IMV, the best for bass in a 410 config.
Get a decent 410 cab tho as you'll needs those chassis to take proper bass..or you could do a more modular set-up of 2x210 for an easier carry.
If you stick with 410...then the old cabs are great but heavy.
Something like Eden or SWR goliath cabs are superb and quality kit..albeit showing signs of age..but if you can handle the weight..which a lot can't and that is why they are cheap..
you'll have to go a very long way to beat them, IMO/IME.

Apart from the weight, the only downsides to older speakers is getting replacements should you have problems..

2...always been that way... and 10's predate the mainstream use of 5 and 6 st by some way.
12's and 15's have their fans as you needed size to equate to volume output and 15's were good for 300 watts RMS eons ago... so therefore got popular for that reason alone, pretty much.

Nowadays, there is nothing a set of 10's can't do bass wise., IMO.

[Phil Starr]

There isn't really a 'sound' you can attribute to a particular size of driver. The size does affect the sound but so do many other features of speaker design. you can certainly have a bright sounding and bass light 15 or a deep 10. Don't obsess on speaker size or configuration and just go out and listen. Read the article on the Barefaced site you have been linked to above which should give you all the detail you want but it is all about how the cab sounds not how it gets there.

[merlin]

ouch my brain hurts now,I thank you for this post I understand a little better now,thinks stick to my tens....

[leftybassman392]

For what it's worth, a lot of manufacturers are now producing lightweight but very powerful 1x12 cabs. There's a bit of marketing hype in the idea, but I have to say that the ones I've tried are all very good at what they do (I currently run a Vanderkley 112 and will be looking to get another in due course).

At the end of the day though, if your setup sounds good to you as it is and does what you want it to then what's the problem?

[shizznit]

As said previously, size does not really matter. PJB cabs are made with 5" drivers...tiny! You would be surprised how much low end you can produce with those cabs.

[ShergoldSnickers]

If we go back in time a bit, even as recently as 10 years, we find that speaker driver construction was not as advanced as it is today. So what's changed? The main differences, other than lightweight neodymium magnets, are the ability of the cone to move further without hitting mechanical limits, to better use that extra movement without too much extra signal distortion, and the ability to cope with the extra power going though the coil windings. What all this adds up to is a greater volume of air being moved without using a speaker of larger diameter. So, it's now possible to get a top notch 12" speaker that can shift much more air than a lesser 15" speaker cone, because the pistonic movement of the 15" is limited. It's this volume displacement that matters as far as the driver goes.

If this driver is now put into an inappropriate box, all that extra engineering will be wasted. So the speaker enclosure also matters. You have to consider the box and driver as a complete system. If properly designed, the enclosure will complement the driver and get it working to it's optimum. There is a compromise here though. That optimum might involve a very large enclosure, so you'll find that speaker system designers will trade off some of that optimum to get the enclosure size and weight down. This usually effects the lower end of the spectrum, which will now fall off sooner in terms of response. By carefully tuning the enclosure, it is possible to bring some of this response back at the expense of feeding in more power. This is where thermal power handling comes in. A good speaker will draw away the heat generated within the coils fast enough to avoid thermal damage. Then there are mechanical power handling limits. I'll stop here though, it's already got complicated enough.

The thing to remember is it's how all the components in a speaker system work with each other. Isolating one component only gives you part of the story. The link given above by Musky explains all this brilliantly.

Edited May 3, 2012 by ShergoldSnickers

[Pinball]

Thanks for all the help. I love this site, so much experise and always someone with constructive comments.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1336027837' post='1639574']
Speaker size has little to do with the amount of bass it can produce, that's the cab's job. 10" drivers give a better dispersion than 15".
[/quote]

A 10" driver gives better than a 15", but start using multiple 10s and it will mess up as soon as they are next to each other.

The development in speakers recently has produced very good 12s and 15s, whilst the 10s coming out have not benefited so much. It does mean cheaper cabs that are using crude drivers still might have the old rules apply, but once you get into serious cabs, size ceases to make any odds over other factors.

http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/speaker-size-frequency-response.htm
http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/Volume-displacement.htm

[mrtcat]

Get out there and listen. If it sounds good to your ears at war volume then the drivers are irrelevant. Lots of preconceptions out there and a well designed / engineered cab will beat the sledgehammer approach of "big drivers mean big bass" anyday.

[thebuckets]

Im still as confused as ever.
Having had a 1x15 peavey for 20 years I was happy with my sound. even more so when i picked up a Sandberg basic as it sounded great through it. now that amp has given up the ghost and im looking at a micro amp (promethean possibly) and will use the head with my 2x12 LB212 cab for bigger gigs. The question is would i be able to extend the promethean with a 1x12 cab to provide a good sound (i have read on hear that matched speaker sizes are best?) using the full 500w? and would that be as efficient as using the 212? if so i could buy a single 12"cab and sell the 212
and as a final one what do people think of eden cabs? nice prices on thomann for their 112 and 110s
sorry for the multiple questions folks

[Lozz196]

Re the speaker size matching - many say that`s the right thing, and have a lot of technical know-how, whereas I don`t, so can`t comment on that, aside from I usually let my ears be the judge - if they like the set-up, they like it.

But re Eden cabs - I like them. They are very full sounding, and usually high efficiency, so you get a lot of volume from them. Can be fairly heavy, but for 11os and 112s that`s not going to be too much of an issue.

[xgsjx]

Is the LB212 the Ashdown & is it 4Ω? If so, then no. The Promethean (& most other small heads) have a minimum load of 4Ω, though EBS & Ampeg do go to 2Ω.

I'd have a look at the 2x10 cabs or if you have the budget, Barefaced.

[thebuckets]

I mean using the head as a stand alone head with the 4ohm ashdown LB or getting an additional 112or 110 to couple up to the promethean in its combo state to form a modular 2x10 ( or 110 and 112 together)
[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1336152600' post='1641886']
Is the LB212 the Ashdown & is it 4Ω? If so, then no. The Promethean (& most other small heads) have a minimum load of 4Ω, though EBS & Ampeg do go to 2Ω.

I'd have a look at the 2x10 cabs or if you have the budget, Barefaced.
[/quote]

[Pinball]

Thanks, At the moment I have and Mag 300 Evo with an old peavey 15" but I have agreed to buy a Hartke VX 410. I'll see how I get on with that and can always add/upgrade as I go on. I haven't even played bass live yet.

[thebuckets]

[quote name='thebuckets' timestamp='1336153575' post='1641911']
I mean using the head as a stand alone head with the 4ohm ashdown LB or getting an additional 112or 110 to couple up to the promethean in its combo state to form a modular 2x10 ( or 110 and 112 together)
[/quote]
barefaced would be first choice. even thinking of sending the combo back and gettting a harley benton top and placing the rest of the money down on a compact!
will see if the fabled promethean lives up to the hype and take it from there.
still no advice on mixing a 10 with a 12

[Mr. Foxen]

Mixing speakers with different motors tends towards a bad plan because it won't sound predictable. If you can try it out for free, do it, but definitely a theme of it not producing wyhat you'd hope.

[JTUK]

People will try and tell you there is very little difference betwen speaker sizes but you can only go with what you know and hear.
I'd say this to the vast majority of bass players...

Most gigs with a bass player on a 15 will have that typical sound..and it may not be that good...will struggle to keep focus..will put out decent volume or more
but will be too unsutble when the bass is being pushed and if the drums are holding back..will likely trample all over them...enough to pi$$ off the mix.
The things that attract bass players to 15's are invariably the same things that snag the sound once the band gets going which will be too much bass
which leads to the inevitable mush. Seen and heard it so many times, I'm afraid. You need to watch that you don't loose all tone and definition in your quest for
that big bass sound and the trick is to be able to hear the bass properly when there is a cut down section in the track. I find a pick negates this to a last degree
but fingerstyle can be a minefield.
Some of the modern 12's are better in this regard...as the 12" is a relatively modern concept for bass, ...if you dismiss the Marshall and the like, efforts etc etc ..
they aren't as tight as 10's but not as wobbly as 15's either ..typically.

Of course, we might be approaching this selective and subjective problem from opposite ends but maybe you have to take these generalisations as typical
if you seek advice on the internet. You can get more specific when you hear that sound you are looking for...and then 'this' cab sounds like 'this' for me/you..
but there are standard references that are useful and ball park correct...IMO/IME. Go out and watch a band tonight and draw your own conclusions.

[thebuckets]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1336159937' post='1642039']
Mixing speakers with different motors tends towards a bad plan because it won't sound predictable. If you can try it out for free, do it, but definitely a theme of it not producing wyhat you'd hope.
[/quote]when you say different motors do you mean different sizes? Or does it go deeper? as I can't source a promethean extension cab I Was thinking of an Eden 10 although the 8ohm is a bit harder to find which is why I was leaning to the 12

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='thebuckets' timestamp='1336214109' post='1642543']
when you say different motors do you mean different sizes? Or does it go deeper?
[/quote]

I mean motor, as in the magnet and coil part on the back, they determine how the speaker reacts to applied voltage, same motor will do basically the same thing even if has a different cone on it, keeps the phase relationship close, so you can mix a Kappalite 3012 and 3015 and the result will be reasonably predictable, because they have the same motor. Different motors mean that one speaker might be moving forward, whilst the other is moving backward at some frequencies and make a mess.

[thebuckets]

I'm with you now thanks a lot it makes sense. Hence a barefaced midget will work well with a compact although they're different size cones?
Anyone know what would work well with a promethean given that the ext. Cabs are impossible to get hold of?

[Mornats]

If it helps, I tried an Ashdown 220 Touring today in both 15" and 12" configurations. I found that the 12" gave clearer high mids and highs. They just rang out more to me, whilst the 15" seemed to have rounder lows and an overall rounder, bassier sound. I eventually walked out with the 12" version and am so far very happy with it. You should try it out sometime Pinball... or come hear it at 2.30 at the Nailsea Mayfair on Monday.

[Pinball]

Sure would love to hear it, Judging by the forcast I hope its waterproof!

I've agreed to by a 2nd hand Hartke VX 410. i'll see how that goes,.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Pinball