Hartke 115XL + Trace Elliot 2x10?

[danlea]

I've just bought a Trace Elliot AH600SMX (mint condition, £361!) and am trying to decide what cabs I'm going to use with it. I currently have a compact TE 1x15 combo with a 2x10 extension cab, and the main reason for buying the new head is so I can use a large 1x15. So, I'm very tempted by the Hartke 115XL (only £155 delivered from Absolute Music) to give real focus to the low end, and keep using the TE 2x10 - probably using a crossover around 250Hz. I've used a 115XL + 410XL stack (with Marshall bass amp) once before and I have to say it sounded really smooth, something you wouldn't necessarily expect from the aluminium cones but something a lot of people have noted. However I do love the tone of the celestions, so I'm hoping I can keep that by using the Trace 2x10 but add a more direct deep bass sound by using the Hartke 115XL.

Any comments, warnings and such?

Dan.

[acidbass]

As long as you have enough power available from your head, there should be no problem using a Trace cabinet alongside a Hartke one!

Let us know how you get on

Danny

[alexclaber]

I don't see great worth to true biamping with that rig but it may be worth experimenting with. Can you run one side fullrange and the other high or low passed, to either remove lows from whichever cab handles them worst or highs likewise.

Alex

[The Funk]

I used to run my old Hartke 2.5XL full range and just send the lows to the Hartke 115XL. It sounded cool but I had to be careful about over-extension (or whatever it's called - over-excursion?).

[bass_ferret]

I dont usually think its a good idea to mix cabs and I personally would look for another 2x10 so you can combine them to get a 4x10. Hartke have a very distinctive sound that makes them marmite cabs. This distinctive sound may work well in the set up you describe or it may sound horrible. I doubt if anyone will have tried that combination so you are probably on your own.

[danlea]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='180328' date='Apr 19 2008, 09:27 AM']I dont usually think its a good idea to mix cabs and I personally would look for another 2x10 so you can combine them to get a 4x10.[/quote]

While a 4x10 would be nice, I'm a gigging bassist and we use estate cabs to transport our equipment. Getting a large 1x15 is already a step in the 'how do we get this all in' direction. I don't see why you shouldn't mix cabs (other than for aesthetics), especially if your going to be splitting the frequencies (although I'm not certain I'll be doing that if I do choose to buy the Hartke).

And no, I can't have one side full range and the other high/low pass with this amp.

Dan.

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='danlea' post='180349' date='Apr 19 2008, 10:14 AM']While a 4x10 would be nice, I'm a gigging bassist and we use estate cabs to transport our equipment. Getting a large 1x15 is already a step in the 'how do we get this all in' direction. I don't see why you shouldn't mix cabs (other than for aesthetics), especially if your going to be splitting the frequencies (although I'm not certain I'll be doing that if I do choose to buy the Hartke).

And no, I can't have one side full range and the other high/low pass with this amp.

Dan.[/quote]
Nobody said you had to take my advice.

I did not say get a 4x10, I said get another 2x10, then you would have 2x2x10 which is the same as 1x4x10. Show me a 1x15 the same size as a 2x10?

If you want to mix totally different sounding cabs go ahead, fill your boots. But if you dont want advice that contradicts what you have already decided to do then dont ask for it.

[slaphappygarry]

I have a Hartke 210 xl for sale for £110 plus shipping if you are interested

Garry

[danlea]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='180384' date='Apr 19 2008, 11:29 AM']Nobody said you had to take my advice.

I did not say get a 4x10, I said get another 2x10, then you would have 2x2x10 which is the same as 1x4x10. Show me a 1x15 the same size as a 2x10?

If you want to mix totally different sounding cabs go ahead, fill your boots. But if you dont want advice that contradicts what you have already decided to do then dont ask for it.[/quote]

Who said I didn't want advice that contradicts me? I said my bit, you said yours, and I added some more - where's the problem? I have no problem with your response, and I don't see why you should have a problem with mine.

With regard to your cab configuration suggest, I hadn't got exactly what you were saying; I did think you were suggesting I should get one more 2x10 on top of a 1x15. I'm not sure what you're saying about sizes. The 2x10 extension cab I have is bigger than the 1x15 combo (volume-wise), and adding another 2x10 (if it were the same size as my current one) would make something a lot bigger than a typical 4x10; it would also not sound like a 4x10, it would sound more like a louder 2x10.

I need a 1x15 as I like the sound of them, but I do need some 10s to drive my mids, hence my original position.

And thanks Garry, but I do need a 1x15, as per above. The question for me is, do I want a Hartke aluminium cone 1x15, or some other paper cone 1x15? I think at the price, I'll go for the Hartke. If it doesn't work out, I can just sell it without making too much of a loss.

[bass_ferret]

If you look back on here you will find lots of examples of speaker guru's (or nerds depending on your POV) saying that it is generally a bad idea to mix different sized speakers reproducing the same frequencies and I have some experience of my own to back this up. If you are gonna bi-amp it is a different discussion but then again bi-amping would usually involve using a dedicated sub rather than a full range cab for the low frequencies.

It is also wrong to assume that a 1x15 will have more low end that a 2x10 and you will also find this point repeated in various threads. I cant be arsed to look for the links cos frankly its not my money that may be wasted.

Case in point; I had a Peavey T-max with a 115BW and 2x10 cabs. When used with each cab it sounded great but when I used both cabs there was a big hole in the bottom end, probably a result of cancellation of the ports rather than the drivers. So I got another 2x10 and dumped the 1x15. That the 2x10 was half the size of the 115 was a bonus.

All the gear from makers I have used (Peavey, EBS. Genz Benz) have 2x10's that are smaller that the 1x15 in the range. If a 1x15 is smaller than a 2x10 then I suggest that the cab is too small for the driver to work properly (lots of posts on this as well). This is often the case with combo's.

So my advice is still to get another 2x10 to match the one you already have. No it wont necessarily sound like a 4x10, it will most likely sound better as the drivers will have more room to breathe - this is particularly true where the drivers are diagonally aligned on the baffle making the 2x2x10 cabs taller than the 4x10 with vertically and horizontally aligned drivers.

One final point, would you use different speakers on your stereo? Floorstander on one side and bookshelf on the other maybe? So why do we all insist on doing it with our bass rigs?

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=17724&st=0&gopid=181771&#entry181771"]See also[/url]

[danlea]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='181799' date='Apr 21 2008, 01:24 PM']One final point, would you use different speakers on your stereo? Floorstander on one side and bookshelf on the other maybe? So why do we all insist on doing it with our bass rigs?[/quote]

Ok, there are some fair points in your last post, but I don't think this one (above) is particularly pertinent. You wouldn't generally mix speakers in your stero system because your creating a stereo sound-stage and you don't want it to be unbalanced. Also, music reproduction is a whole different kettle of fish to crafting a bass tone, as I'm sure you appreciate, in terms of transparency.

With regards to 1x15s/2x10s, I wasn't making an assumption. I know that my 2x10 slightly lacks deep bass on its own (and can't handle higher volumes when I tune it down or block both ports), and that the 1x15 provides it, despite it's compact size.

As it happens I've noticed a Trace Elliot 1x15 that looks to be the exact same dimensions as my 2x10 available second hand, so most likely I'll be getting that anyway. Thanks for your input though.

Dan.

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='danlea' post='182072' date='Apr 21 2008, 06:29 PM']Also, music reproduction is a whole different kettle of fish to crafting a bass tone, as I'm sure you appreciate, in terms of transparency.[/quote]
No it is not - hence the current popularity of gear like EBS, MarkBass, Epifani, GenzBenz that all claims to be transparent.

[quote name='danlea' post='182072' date='Apr 21 2008, 06:29 PM']I know that my 2x10 slightly lacks deep bass on its own (and can't handle higher volumes when I tune it down or block both ports), and that the 1x15 provides it, despite it's compact size.[/quote]
Why on earth would you want to block the ports?

[quote name='danlea' post='182072' date='Apr 21 2008, 06:29 PM']As it happens I've noticed a Trace Elliot 1x15 that looks to be the exact same dimensions as my 2x10 available second hand, so most likely I'll be getting that anyway. Thanks for your input though.[/quote]
The problem with technical stuff like I have been saying is that sometimes it is not confirmed by how it sounds. If it sounds good then go for it. I still remain convinced that the Hartke would have sounded crap.

[Merton]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='182717' date='Apr 22 2008, 12:48 PM']Why on earth would you want to block the ports?[/quote]
The USP of the old TRrace range! Both unplugged for xHz, one plugged for yHz and both plugged for sealed. Never bothered plugging mine, mind.

Dan, I think you'll be surprised about the 1153 cab (that's the one you're looking at getting). IME the 2x10 had a better bottom end than the 1x15. It's a nice Trace-sounding cab, don't get me wrong, but the 2x10 is "nicer" and kinda support bass_ferret's argument that another 2x10 offers the best solution.

[danlea]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='182717' date='Apr 22 2008, 12:48 PM']No it is not - hence the current popularity of gear like EBS, MarkBass, Epifani, GenzBenz that all claims to be transparent.

Why on earth would you want to block the ports?[/quote]

Well I don't need my cabinets to sound transparent, and it would be interesting to see how many people do (I honestly don't know the answer to that - I'm not being facetious). Given that the majority of bass players will sculpt their tone with EQ and whatever else they decide to use, they can tailor it to suit the cabinets being used.

Why would I want to block the ports? Here is an excerpt from a Trace Elliot manual (I have the 1x15 tuned to 35Hz and the 2x10 tuned to 45Hz to give a good balance on the low end, but my previous comments refer to the cabinet as a whole, not just in this instance):

[quote]The tuning of the enclosure can be modified by plugging or unplugging either one or both of these ports, the resultant tuning is as follows:-
Both ports plugged = Infinite baffle enclosure
One port plugged = Reflex enclosure tuned to 35Hz
Both ports open = Reflex enclosure tuned to 45Hz

How does the tuning affect the sound?
An INFINITE BAFFLE (both ports plugged) type of enclosure means a cabinet that is completely sealed i.e. nowhere for air to enter or be exhausted from the cabinet. In terms of sound this gives an extended low frequency response that is very even across the lower frequency range i.e.
it has no peaks or dips in the bass response. However although the low end bass is very even and it extends further down the frequency range (below both the other
tuning options) there is generally less of it than with either of the ported options. A REFLEX enclosure has ports for the air from the rear of the speaker to be exhausted from the cabinet or be drawn back into the cabinet. The air in the port in fact oscillates back and forth through the port or ports and can either be in phase with the motion of the speaker and provide a boost to the level of sound or can be out of phase with the speaker in which case it in fact causes a cancellation in air movement and consequently a reduction in volume level. REFLEX enclosures are specially ‘Tuned’ with the size and length of the port to a particular frequency that provides the correct rear loading to the speaker itself allowing it to work efficiently and safely and secondly to provide a bass boost at lower frequencies by using the air from the rear of the speaker through the port to add to the air from the front of the speaker, thus boosting the overall level of volume from the enclosure. This only happens when the air from the port is in phase with the air from the front of the speaker and this occurs at a frequency just above the tuning frequency of the enclosure.

However as with everything else in life you do not get something for nothing because at high frequency directly below the tuned frequency of the enclosure the air from the port is actually out of phase and consequently reduces the volume from the enclosure, this is usually at such a low frequency that in fact does not really matter when considering the range of frequencies to be amplified. Providing the variable tuning facility gives the user the opportunity to experiment with tunings at both 35Hz and 45Hz to find out which works best for them in a particular instrument. Remember that the bass boost is at a frequency just above the tuned frequency and that cancellation occurs at just below the tuned frequency.

How can this be used in a live situation?
Bass sound changes a great deal from one venue to another, for instance if your speaker enclosure is situated in the corner of a room you will get a natural emphasis in low end from the walls of the room being at right angles. This can easily double the amount of bottom end in your sound just from the natural acoustics of the room. In this situation it would be best to plug both ports and use the infinite baffle response providing extended low end but less of it. If on the other hand your speaker is situated backed on to the flat wall and not near a corner then less bass will be apparent, it would now be better to use the 45Hz tuning (both ports unplugged) to provide a bottom end boost. I suggest the 45Hz rather than the 35Hz because the speaker is better able to handle frequencies from the 45Hz upwards
than from 35Hz upwards and you will consequently be able to have your amplifier louder before the speaker complains than with the 35Hz option. If you are however playing at lower volumes or in a studio recording situation you may well find the 35Hz tuning useful as it will give natural boost to the bottom ‘E’ string (42Hz) and above.[/quote]

[danlea]

[quote name='Merton' post='182721' date='Apr 22 2008, 12:57 PM']The USP of the old TRrace range! Both unplugged for xHz, one plugged for yHz and both plugged for sealed. Never bothered plugging mine, mind.

Dan, I think you'll be surprised about the 1153 cab (that's the one you're looking at getting). IME the 2x10 had a better bottom end than the 1x15. It's a nice Trace-sounding cab, don't get me wrong, but the 2x10 is "nicer" and kinda support bass_ferret's argument that another 2x10 offers the best solution.[/quote]

Ah! I spent too long on getting the text and you beat me to the answer!

Ok, so I have two people suggesting the 2x2x10 option now. This does intrigue me because I have the 2x10, and have tried it, and I don't prefer it's bottom end to my 1x15 combo (and I can't imagine that the larger 1x15 cabinet is going to be worse than the combo). Perhaps we just have different ideas of what constitutes a 'nice' bottom end. I love the sound of fifteens, at least with my precision sound. I can imagine preferring all tens for a jazz sound (which I shall have soon, thanks to Champion Badger), but of course it's all speculation, and as bass ferret rightly noted, theory is useful, but it's what you hear that matters.

All in all I'm looking for a warm rounded tone more than I am a really punchy one, so the 1153T seems a good option for now. It's also the safest option given that I do love my current tone, and this step is essentially that of least difference. I'd also like to at least try out the bi-amping facility on the new head, and the fifteen really should be more suitable for that (the Trace Elliot manual actually suggests this configuration for bi-amping, specifically in stereo, but it also applies to mono).

Dan.

[bass_ferret]

Very interesting USP! Will have to have a good read at home.

[Merton]

[quote name='danlea' post='182754' date='Apr 22 2008, 01:37 PM']Ah! I spent too long on getting the text and you beat me to the answer!

Ok, so I have two people suggesting the 2x2x10 option now. This does intrigue me because I have the 2x10, and have tried it, and I don't prefer it's bottom end to my 1x15 combo (and I can't imagine that the larger 1x15 cabinet is going to be worse than the combo). Perhaps we just have different ideas of what constitutes a 'nice' bottom end. I love the sound of fifteens, at least with my precision sound. I can imagine preferring all tens for a jazz sound (which I shall have soon, thanks to Champion Badger), but of course it's all speculation, and as bass ferret rightly noted, theory is useful, but it's what you hear that matters.

All in all I'm looking for a warm rounded tone more than I am a really punchy one, so the 1153T seems a good option for now. It's also the safest option given that I do love my current tone, and this step is essentially that of least difference. I'd also like to at least try out the bi-amping facility on the new head, and the fifteen really should be more suitable for that (the Trace Elliot manual actually suggests this configuration for bi-amping, specifically in stereo, but it also applies to mono).

Dan.[/quote]
Hehe. Whereabouts in London are you? Do you wanna come try my 1153 before you buy the one you've seen? I'm about 30mins from central London on the train...

[The Funk]

If you leave one of the ports open, then your 2x10 will be tuned to 35Hz, the same as the equivalent 1x15.

[bass_ferret]

Very interesting but tuning down to 35Hz is gonna waste lots of ampage. There are lots of recommendations to use a high pass filter at 40Hz unless you are using deep tuning. There is a article on the basschat wiki about boundary reinforcement.

I still cant help thinking that 2 2x10's tuned to 45Hz is gonna sound better than a 2x10/1x15 tuned to 35Hz. But then again I've never spent a lot of time f***ing about with TE (never liked the sound) so I will bow to the superior wisdom of those that have.

On most cabs you don't have an option of tuning the ports and I would guess that most makers will have all their cabs tuned to the same frequency (except the Peavey cabs I had) so they work well together. My Peavey cabs were separated by a few years so it is entirely possible the tuning frequency of all their cabs was changed in the intervening years. Also adds to the uncertainty of mixing cabs from different makers as well.

Edited April 22, 2008 by bass_ferret

[danlea]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='183082' date='Apr 22 2008, 07:01 PM']On most cabs you don't have an option of tuning the ports and I would guess that most makers will have all their cabs tuned to the same frequency (except the Peavey cabs I had) so they work well together.[/quote]

But what makes you think having two cabs tuned to the same frequency is best? As I've said, my current rig sounds best (in my opinion) when the 2x10 is left tuned to 45Hz and the 1x15 is tuned down to 35Hz. Yes the maximum 'loudness' of the 1x15 is decreased, but I never need to run it at max (infinite baffle is unfortunately a step too far, and the cab then doesn't put out enough bass for rehearsal). While my decision to use this configuration is down to listening to all possible setups (well, all setups involving no more than two sponges coz that's all I happen to have), my explanation for this is precisely because the tunings do not both try to reinforce the same frequency range, meaning the bass is more even on the way down.

The Funk has noted that the tunings apply equally to each cabinet. It's simply my experience that tuning the 2x10 down isn't as effective, and if I want to boost the low E on my bass, I'd rather boost it on a fifteen than tens.

One final note (I think pushing the topic much further is probably akin to flogging a dead donkey): The 1x15 and a 2x10 or a 4x10 is classic combination, used by countless bassists. Even if it's not to everyone's liking, surely there's good reason for that.

[danlea]

[quote name='Merton' post='182831' date='Apr 22 2008, 02:53 PM']Hehe. Whereabouts in London are you? Do you wanna come try my 1153 before you buy the one you've seen? I'm about 30mins from central London on the train...[/quote]

That's very kind of you and thanks for the offer, but I think it's probably more hassle than it's worth for me. I'm buying the cab for £100 (it does have a fair old white paint mark on the grill and some damage to one port, nothing that affects the sound though apparently) so there's not much risk involved - only some wasted time and maybe £10-20 loss.

Dan.

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='danlea' post='183217' date='Apr 22 2008, 09:41 PM']But what makes you think having two cabs tuned to the same frequency is best? As I've said, my current rig sounds best (in my opinion) when the 2x10 is left tuned to 45Hz and the 1x15 is tuned down to 35Hz. Yes the maximum 'loudness' of the 1x15 is decreased, but I never need to run it at max (infinite baffle is unfortunately a step too far, and the cab then doesn't put out enough bass for rehearsal). While my decision to use this configuration is down to listening to all possible setups (well, all setups involving no more than two sponges coz that's all I happen to have), my explanation for this is precisely because the tunings do not both try to reinforce the same frequency range, meaning the bass is more even on the way down.

The Funk has noted that the tunings apply equally to each cabinet. It's simply my experience that tuning the 2x10 down isn't as effective, and if I want to boost the low E on my bass, I'd rather boost it on a fifteen than tens.

One final note (I think pushing the topic much further is probably akin to flogging a dead donkey): The 1x15 and a 2x10 or a 4x10 is classic combination, used by countless bassists. Even if it's not to everyone's liking, surely there's good reason for that.[/quote]
Yes the 1x15/2x10 or 4x10 is a very popular combination but that does not necessarily make it right nor does it mean that 2x2x10 or 2x4x10 wont sound better/different/worse depending on your preference. Most commercially available bass cabs are too small for the drivers fitted according to many acoustic engineers. Like I said when I described my experience of running a 1x15/2x10 rig where I heard a hole in the bass is consistent with the out of phase bit from your description of the ports in the Trace cabs. So you wont get smooth response from 35 to 45 Hz, you will get a hole at 40Hz because of phase cancellation from the 45Hz port. As it says in the description this might not be audible (but then nor would the peak at 35Hz) or you may even like it but it does sound feasible as the cause of the duff sound I had when I had the Peavey cabs.

But at the end of the day if you are happy with the sound then all this theory is bollocks. I'm just curious really as to what the difference would be but you wont know if you dont try it. Maybe we could try it if we have another London and South East bash.

[danlea]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='183320' date='Apr 22 2008, 11:06 PM']So you wont get smooth response from 35 to 45 Hz, you will get a hole at 40Hz because of phase cancellation from the 45Hz port.[/quote]

Not necessarily. It depends on the relative contributions of the drivers and ports at that frequency. And in any case, if the destructive interference below the tuning frequency significantly reduces the amount of bass just below the tuning frequency (and I'm assuming that the combined waveform is not phase-reversed), then having two cabs tuned to 45Hz is not going to give you any decent amount of bass there, whereas if you have one at 45Hz and one at 35Hz, at least you have some (reinforced even) at 40Hz. My low E is stronger in the latter configuration than the former.

[Sparky]

alright Dan. hey, not to sure about the technical stuff (gave up and started to skim read after the fifth or sixth post ) but re. mixing alu and paper cones - i use a Hartke 210XL with a Trace 2103H and the two sound good together. the TE is round and warm whilst the Hartke is bright and responsive.. together (IMHO) they combine well. good luck sorting a solution that works for you. sparky.

Edited April 28, 2008 by Sparky