Does a low B ruin your E?

[stingrayPete1977]

I disagree BRX , The Fender style headstock is probably the best for break angle although it does obviously meen more E string behind the nut on a 5 than a 4. Gibson style head stocks alway tend to be pulling sideways against the nut at least on the outer strings, can you give an example of any 5 string bass where the break angles are good and the E string has the same amount of string between the nut and the tuner post as it 4 string version? (no prizes for headless basses!)

Edited May 12, 2012 by stingrayPete1977

[BigRedX]

Really? On a Fender-style headstock the break angle for every string except the ones passing under the same string retainer is different which plays havoc with the compliance of the string not to mention tuning stability problems due to the extra amount of string you need to wrap around some machine head posts and the the extra hardware in the string path.

With a good angled headstock because the break angle is automatically the same for every string the affect of the extra string length on compliance is far less (I would argue that break angle affects compliance more than the length of non-vibrating string). Looking at the six 5-string basses I use most often (2 Gus G3s, 2 Overwater Originals, a Sei Flamboyant and a Yamaha BJ 5B) all of these have close to straight string pull behind the nut so don't exhibit any of the sideways forces you mention.

[stingrayPete1977]

I'm getting my string lay mixed up with my break angle, sorry.

That said I rarely have to tune any of my Rays, 2 turns of string wound above on each string post works fine and I have been known to trash my basses! Does the Fender have less angle than my Rays? Some rays are missing their string trees without any trouble, my pre has it on the d&g rather than the A&D of EBMM basses. Obviously the g post is in a better place than the Fender but then the problem (if you call it one) returns on the fiver with the d being where a fender g is.

[stingrayPete1977]

Worst one for string lie I ever saw was on a Status neck that had its hardware fitted by the man himself at extra cost obviously, that's another story for someone else to tell

[risingson]

I met Paul a while back and he told me that his Alleva Coppolo was an exception to this but that in the whole he agreed. I don't agree though. Not typically a 5 string player but I've tried a number of 5 strings where this hasn't been the case, including a particularly excellent Elrick I tried yesterday here in Geneva. I guess maybe my opinion might be different if I had extensive experience of playing 5's though.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1336844600' post='1651899']
... On a Fender-style headstock ... tuning stability problems
[/quote]
I've never experienced that.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1336852249' post='1652042']
I've never experienced that.
[/quote]

One of the many reasons that I got rid of my Squier VMJ was that it was nearly impossible to get the G and D strings in tune. No matter what I did to the string retainer the windings on the strings kept getting caught and the strings would vary between being 20 cents sharp to 20 cents flat. Also the amount of the string you had to wrap around the A and E machine head posts meant that they took much longer to settle down into tune after changing strings.

Of course when the Fender Bass headstock was designed everyone used flats and only ever changed strings if they broke them so I imagine that these issues were never even considered.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1336855026' post='1652082']
One of the many reasons that I got rid of my Squier VMJ was that it was nearly impossible to get the G and D strings in tune. No matter what I did to the string retainer the windings on the strings kept getting caught and the strings would vary between being 20 cents sharp to 20 cents flat. Also the amount of the string you had to wrap around the A and E machine head posts meant that they took much longer to settle down into tune after changing strings.
[/quote]
Maybe I'm always a bit out of tune.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1336855026' post='1652082']
Of course when the Fender Bass headstock was designed everyone used flats and only ever changed strings if they broke them so I imagine that these issues were never even considered.
[/quote]
Ah, that's me.

[BB3000S]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1336823797' post='1651560']Surely the biggest variable BB3000 had was tuning a 125 or 130 guage string to E and the same across the neck - an extra 25 mm string thickness will make a difference to the sound - ultra ultra heavy guage effectively.

In a similar way, if you play a G on the E string at 15th fret it'll sound substantially different to an open G, although the same note (well almost ).

String manufacturers make a range of guages - it's not for show they actually sound very different.[/quote]
You got me wrong, sorry if I was unclear. This is what went down in casa BB yesterday - I mistakenly put five strings out of a six string set on my jazz, so first time around the strings/gauges were
E .100 (where the B string normally is)
A .80
D .60
G .40
C .30
With this set of strings I first tuned up to BEADG, which resulted in all kinds of bad sounds and very sloppy strings (of course).
I then tuned as above and performed the first part of the "experiment". E string sounded great, very open and agressive.

Since the high C is more ore less useless to me in comparison to a low B, I then took out the proper B string, took away the above and stringed it
B .120
E .100
A .80
D .60
G .40
Now the E string sounded clearly different when slapped, fingerstyle not so much of an apparent difference.

In ref to Happy Jack's comment - the difference I heard was mainly when slapping (it's a Miller V after all ) so I don't think it had much to do with how I was striking the strings.

Like Fat Rich I do suspect that the poor E string could have felt mishandled being strung in the B position and then restrung in the correct one. To do a proper test one (with strings a plenty) should fit brand new strings in both the EADGC and BEADG tunings.
[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1336822818' post='1651540']
i dont care how good he is, hes either said this under his breath sometime, or hes talking nonsense.... i hate all these minor details to a bassists tone.... its total rubbish.. its in the playing that matters
[/quote]
Since he says it very explicitly in the Jamirotalk interview linked earlier in the thread, I'm sure Paul Turner sincerely feels there is a difference. You're absolutely right it is the playing that matters though!

[LawrenceH]

BRX - I had to change how I strung slightly moving from Ibanex/Yamaha to Fenders in order to get the strings to wrap ok, but I don't have any tuning stability issues, certainly nothing like +/- 20 cents! That sounds like something was wrong to me.
But actually I really prefer the feel of the E string in particular on a Fender to how it was on my other basses. It was very noticeable when I first changed, so to me whether it's poorly designed is moot, subjectively it feels better. Anyway I still reckon compliance could be a likely source of possible difference if there is one at all. Also I suppose strings provide a certain amount of damping to each other in terms of neck vibrations? Certainly adds a bit more mass, though it seems like that'd be pretty marginal to me. What about position on the neck in relation to centre of mass/rigidity? There are several things that [i]could[/i] make a difference, whether they do or not I've no idea, I'm no five-stringer! BB's experience is pretty interesting though

[stingrayPete1977]

At the end of the day the type of basses we play and the gauge of strings we choose to fit to them is going to make more difference from player to player than from a 4 to 5 string version of the same bass. I can't imagine any bass with light gauge strings having as nice an E as my Ray 5's fitted with super slinkys?

[Maverick]

I've never played a 5 string bass for any significant length of time, but I have a 7 string g**t*r and the E definitely seems different to that on that to on 6 strings, but I've always put that down to having another string in the way and having to have a more reserved picking attack than when it's the lowest string.

On bass, I don't know whether it would affect my fingerstyle playing that much but I can see how having a B string would affect my slap technique (not that I slap much/am any good at it, so that might be part of the problem), as I can always dig in more on the E string than on the A if I want to, so I can see how having a B in the way would change that.

I'd have thought Paul would be on the ball enough to notice i it was just a technique thing though. Does the difference in construction effect the innate tonal properties of the string? Not a clue, but I suppose it's possible.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Maverick

[BigRedX]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1336865535' post='1652203']
BRX - I had to change how I strung slightly moving from Ibanex/Yamaha to Fenders in order to get the strings to wrap ok, but I don't have any tuning stability issues, certainly nothing like +/- 20 cents! That sounds like something was wrong to me.
[/quote]

What was wrong was the windings of the strings were catching on the string retainer. I'd turn the machine heads and nothing would happen to the pitch of the string and then it would suddenly jump up or down by 30-40 cents as several rows of windings moved under the string retainer. Because I'd never owned a bass with a non-angled headstock before it took a while to work out what was going on, but when I figured it out I thought there must be the strings catching on a rough edge on the string retainer. Taking it off there was nothing obvious, but I ran a needle file along both edges just in case. It made no difference. I got as far as looking to see if Graphtech did a frictionless replacement string retainer (they didn't at the time) but in the end decided to move the bass on as there were too many design issues that conflicted with how I played - due to having only played basses that had little in common with the Fender model up to that point. I'd also wasted a set of strings on it due to cutting the E and A too short to get enough length wrapped around the machine head post to give me a decent break angle over the nut - again something that I'd never had to deal with before. As a result of all this, I'd be very reluctant to buy bass now that didn't have an angled headstock.

[chris_b]

The only thing that ruins my E string is my playing.

If I had a technique the size of Everest (instead of Kingston Hill) and I was being paid a fat retainer to play for someone as picky as Jay Kay I'd be considering every minute detail as well. Sadly I'm not so this is a "non problem" for me.

On a gig, even with FOH, once the drummer gets going no one's going to notice anything as subtle as the focus of the E string!
[font=Arial][size=2] [/size][/font]

[ezbass]

I saw Robben Ford at the Jazz Cafe years ago with the brilliant Roscoe Beck on bass. He had his new Fender custom shop RBs, one 4 and a 5, same colour and construction. I have to say that the 4 string was much punchier and better sounding to my ears. Not sure that proves anything as no 2 basses are ever the same really, but I just wanted to add this observation.

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1336823797' post='1651560']
Surely the biggest variable BB3000 had was tuning a 125 or 130 guage string to E and the same across the neck - an extra 25 mm string thickness will make a difference to the sound - ultra ultra heavy guage effectively.
[/quote]

Strictly speaking it's actually 0.025" (or 0.635 mm). I don't think that was quite what he meant though when he strung it EADGC or whatever he did.

At any rate I think this mostly sounds like crap. I mean, let's be serious about this, does it make a difference? Maybe a very small amount. Does it mean you should not play a 5 string? I don't think so. If anything, I think the feel of not having that string on the bottom makes a much bigger difference to the sound than anything to do with the tension or string break off angle.

Edited May 13, 2012 by EdwardHimself

[drTStingray]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' timestamp='1336908586' post='1652545']
Strictly speaking it's actually 0.025" (or 0.635 mm). I don't think that was quite what he meant though when he strung it EADGC or whatever he did.

At any rate I think this mostly sounds like crap. I mean, let's be serious about this, does it make a difference? Maybe a very small amount. Does it mean you should not play a 5 string? I don't think so. If anything, I think the feel of not having that string on the bottom makes a much bigger difference to the sound than anything to do with the tension or string break off angle.
[/quote]

Yeah sorry the figures were wrong, but I think the point was clear (guage and neck position differences) and BB has clarified his post also.

I do agree with you, we absolutely shouldn't be put off from buying a 5 string based on Paul Turner's comment. I haven't read the interview so haven't a clue what the context was but as quoted here it could mean a multitude of things - only one of them being that the open E on a 5 string neck sounds different from on a 4.

The fact is Paul doesn't play a 5 very much live these days. Possibly more for recording.

[dub]

If I play the E string on a five string bass, then remove the B string and play E string again. I prefer the tone with the B string attached.
Of course, someone else might prefer the opposite.
If you want to try this on a four string, you can do the same comparing the A and removing the E. The difference is even more pronounced.

[mckendrick]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1336852249' post='1652042']
I've never experienced that.
[/quote]
+1

[risingson]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1336948883' post='1653215']The fact is Paul doesn't play a 5 very much live these days. Possibly more for recording. [/quote]

Paul is a really nice guy and incredibly personable. He won't have meant it quite as literally as has been construed, he's obviously just talking from his own viewpoint rather than making a broad speculation. And he does seem to go through plenty of basses! F-Bass, Stingray 5's, Alleva Coppolos and more recently a Fodera NYC 5 have all featured in his list of 5'ers over the past few years. You always see him come back to his 60's Fender Jazz though.

[Dood]

[quote name='thinman' timestamp='1336762422' post='1650810']
This is where I saw the comment:

[url="http://www.jamirotalk.net/interviews/paul.html"]http://www.jamirotalk.net/interviews/paul.html[/url]
[/quote]

Pasting the comment for visibility:


Do you have preference between 4 or 5 string bass’?

Paul:  
I do think 4s usually sound better. The E on a 5 doesn’t sound as good. Period. However I like playing 5 and enjoy having the option of the extra range of low notes without detuning.

[Onox]

I had this experience with my Fender Roscoe Beck V. The low b was great but the e-string was not fat and punchy. Since then, I´ll try to test every 5-String I would buy. Thats just a experience with one Bass, i woldn´t say thats a generela problem of 5-Strings.

Edited May 19, 2012 by Onox

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1337080766' post='1654975'] Pasting the comment for visibility: Do you have preference between 4 or 5 string bass’? Paul: I do think 4s usually sound better. The E on a 5 doesn’t sound as good. Period. However I like playing 5 and enjoy having the option of the extra range of low notes without detuning. [/quote]

Not exactly 'ruin' then.