Guitar lines on bass

[EdwardHimself]

The bass player in my band insists he has no interest in playing the guitar, and yet every practice he is trying to play a guitar line on the bass. It's really beginning to get on my nerves now. I just don't get it, y'know? If he is that bothered about playing guitar lines, why not just learn the guitar?

[discreet]

Is he Billy Sheehan?

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1336742403' post='1650303']
Is he Billy Sheehan?
[/quote]

Lol we saw him at Bass day 2010, I reckon he wishes he was

[achknalligewelt]

Maybe he heard that guitarists are ten a penny, but a bassist will always be able to find a band.

I have a bit of sympathy with him. I started as a guitarist (still am by inclination, but have been enjoyiong the bass for years alongside it). So, does he get in everyone else's way? I've been accused of this in the past, and have always tried to take account of my bandmates needs. But if I have space for a few notes of wild improv, why not? We all like to stretch.

If this guy can make it sound good, I say more power to him. The bass can do all sorts of things other than thump away in the background. But it has to be done right, and everyone in a band needs to be sympathetic to the rest when it comes to playing, otherwise the whole band will just sound messy.

[paul torch]

because it has balls when played on bass?

[skej21]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' timestamp='1336739516' post='1650246']
The bass player in my band insists he has no interest in playing the guitar, and yet every practice he is trying to play a guitar line on the bass.
[/quote]

Maybe he's playing them as a hint because HE feels you're not playing the parts properly? Doesn't mean he's right, but he could be thinking it!

I've seen a fiddle player do a similar thing with a guitarist, which sparked an argument about how the part was meant to be played. The fiddle player was correct, despite hours of arguing from the guitard who was promptly fired.

Edited May 11, 2012 by skej21

[paul_5]

'cos he doesn't actually [i]listen[/i] to music and isn't able to differentiate between what the bass and guitar do?

[Dave Vader]

Or he's been listening to early Led Zep and Rush, where they used to double the lines on Guitar and bass.

[paul_5]

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1336749146' post='1650456']
Or he's been listening to early Led Zep and Rush, where they used to double the lines on Guitar and bass.
[/quote]

+1,000,000. It's not always a bad thing then is it?

[musophilr]

Slightly OT I know, but I liked Jeff Berlin's bass-wise version of El-Clappo's [i]Crossroads[/i]

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' timestamp='1336739516' post='1650246']
The bass player in my band [/quote]

That's the thing that's confusing me. Which instrument are [i]you [/i]playing, Eddie?

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='achknalligewelt' timestamp='1336742949' post='1650318']
Maybe he heard that guitarists are ten a penny, but a bassist will always be able to find a band.

I have a bit of sympathy with him. I started as a guitarist (still am by inclination, but have been enjoyiong the bass for years alongside it). So, does he get in everyone else's way? I've been accused of this in the past, and have always tried to take account of my bandmates needs. But if I have space for a few notes of wild improv, why not? We all like to stretch.

If this guy can make it sound good, I say more power to him. The bass can do all sorts of things other than thump away in the background. But it has to be done right, and everyone in a band needs to be sympathetic to the rest when it comes to playing, otherwise the whole band will just sound messy.
[/quote]

I don't think that sort of thing is appropriate for our sort of band. I have already had to ban him from slap bass and envelope filter.

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1336749146' post='1650456']
Or he's been listening to early Led Zep and Rush, where they used to double the lines on Guitar and bass.
[/quote]

There are a lot of bands where that sort of thing is done, but that is not what I mean either.

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1336743882' post='1650339']
Maybe he's playing them as a hint because HE feels you're not playing the parts properly? Doesn't mean he's right, but he could be thinking it!

I've seen a fiddle player do a similar thing with a guitarist, which sparked an argument about how the part was meant to be played. The fiddle player was correct, despite hours of arguing from the guitard who was promptly fired.
[/quote]

I can assure you that certainly is not the case. I am the one who taught him to play the bass, after all...

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1336753207' post='1650562']
That's the thing that's confusing me. Which instrument are [i]you [/i]playing, Eddie?
[/quote]

Drums. That's pretty much just because we could never find a drummer though. I'm not really the best at drums.

Edited May 11, 2012 by EdwardHimself

[AttitudeCastle]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1336742403' post='1650303']
Is he Billy Sheehan?
[/quote]

Touchy

[discreet]

[quote name='AttitudeCastle' timestamp='1336762394' post='1650808']
Touchy
[/quote]

I'm just learning 'Undertow' by Mr Big. This is pretty restrained for him, going by some of the other stuff I've heard...

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHGv5FCS2j8[/media]

Edited May 11, 2012 by discreet

[AttitudeCastle]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1336762600' post='1650816']
I'm just learning 'Undertow' by Mr Big. This is pretty restrained for him, going by some of the other stuff I've heard...

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHGv5FCS2j8[/media]
[/quote]

It's in Eb Ab Db Gb tuning right?

Billy is always about holding back, or linking with the guitar or only soloing when it's not going to ruin the low end. Hence why he rarely solos in songs

[End fanboy rant]

[guildbass]

Guitar solos, song melody lines and 'proper' bass lines use the same bit of brain....That's why you can easily sing while strumming guitar but not while solo-ing on guitar or playing a bass line that isn't thumping along on the beat like a tuned kick drum.

He probably plays guitar melodies or solos because they feel 'right' for a bass player...i do sometimes too...great for feel, timing and accurate note placement and if he's just going doing doing doing with root notes on the beat, he's probably bored...Doing that is the province of guitarists who think bass is easy!

Edited May 11, 2012 by guildbass

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='guildbass' timestamp='1336768888' post='1650947']
Guitar solos, song melody lines and 'proper' bass lines use the same bit of brain....That's why you can easily sing while strumming guitar but not while solo-ing on guitar or playing a bass line that isn't thumping along on the beat like a tuned kick drum.

He probably plays guitar melodies or solos because they feel 'right' for a bass player...i do sometimes too...great for feel, timing and accurate note placement and if he's just going doing doing doing with root notes on the beat, he's probably bored...Doing that is the province of guitarists who think bass is easy!
[/quote]

I'm sorry to say that the vast majority of basslines may not suit the desire to be at the front of all the action and play something "out there" but the fact is that in most songs, that is what the bassline is needed for. I try to write basslines that are as interesting as possible but the simple fact is that you cannot do anything too "exciting" because with what the guitars are doing in our songs, you just "lose" the foundation of the actual music. I can't sit there and start playing a load of ridiculous fills every other bar on drums. It might be fun for me, but you just lose the whole rhythm of the song. Same thing with the bass. We are there to support the song. That was pretty much my original point when I started this thread: if bass is too "boring" for him, why doesn't he learn the guitar?

Edited May 11, 2012 by EdwardHimself

[mushers]

perhaps he just needs some more guidance as said before, maybe he feels he is done with the root and wants to experiment a bit if you taught him bass show him the ways of the force

a fill every 2nd bar may be too much but one placed in the right place with the right notes as we know is awesome

but ... if im honest the guitarists need to be turned down a bit put the bass out front

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='mushers' timestamp='1336771420' post='1650996']
perhaps he just needs some more guidance as said before, maybe he feels he is done with the root and wants to experiment a bit if you taught him bass show him the ways of the force
[/quote]

I tought him the basics, and that was a few years ago. He's pretty muc hjust been learning on his own since then. He showed some interest in learning the guitar a few months ago but suddenly went off the idea again.

[quote]
a fill every 2nd bar may be too much but one placed in the right place with the right notes as we know is awesome
[/quote]

I do try to add fills in wherever appropriate, just like on drums. I think the whole point is though that he has just got to accept that the bass is the bass and not the guitar. There is only so far you can go with it.

Edited May 11, 2012 by EdwardHimself

[guildbass]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' timestamp='1336769967' post='1650967']
I'm sorry to say that the vast majority of basslines may not suit the desire to be at the front of all the action and play something "out there" but the fact is that in most songs, that is what the bassline is needed for. I try to write basslines that are as interesting as possible but the simple fact is that you cannot do anything too "exciting" because with what the guitars are doing in our songs, you just "lose" the foundation of the actual music. I can't sit there and start playing a load of ridiculous fills every other bar on drums. It might be fun for me, but you just lose the whole rhythm of the song. Same thing with the bass. We are there to support the song. That was pretty much my original point when I started this thread: if bass is too "boring" for him, why doesn't he learn the guitar?
[/quote]

That's probably the problem then for your bassist.. You are perhaps writing rock bass lines which are basically just chugging along on the beat and in the root....A rhythm guitar but one note one octave down.... Perfectly adequate for generic Rock ...Most '70's rock/pop lines were like that...But frankly....Dull to play...Great for the punter as you were replicating the original but not creative for the musician. it's work, not play...the best tunes are both...It isn't about fancy fills, it's about the groove and you don't need lots of notes to groove...Listen to T Rex's 'Get It On'...The entire song gets it's groove from the bass simply because in 'E' the bass plays a neat little off beat riff then switches to an on-beat chug for the 'A'
Take the bass out of T Rex and all you've got is Country and Western. Simple songs absolutely transformed by a really simple but 'real' bass line...And sooo cool to play right

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' timestamp='1336771783' post='1651003']
I think the whole point is though that he has just got to accept that the bass is the bass and not the guitar. There is only so far you can go with it.[/quote]

Y'know, reading this is like being in a weird parallel universe. Or on a guitard forum.

It's really rather refreshing.

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1336776391' post='1651067']
Y'know, reading this is like being in a weird parallel universe. Or on a guitard forum.

It's really rather refreshing.
[/quote]

Skank (as always) has a marvellous point.
Imagine if Cliff Williams had said "No, these songs need many twiddly and exciting fills and poly-rhythmed marvellousness" AC/DC would be a pile of f**k-awful turd and nobody would listen to them. 8th note roots are great, if you play them right you will enjoy it.
I'm mostly playing one root note per bar in my current gig, and the trick is to make them sound nice and hold long enough. It is a lot more challenging than the chromatic hemi-semi-quaver madness that I have been known to do at times. (Any twat can play a lot of notes very fast, the trick is to know when to do it).

I would be interested to hear the songs Eddie is talking about. I suspect they need restraint.

[dogload]

As a 'guitarist' I would encourage him to play more of the melodic or complicated bits wherever possible. This frees [i]you [/i]up to play easier stuff and make a big spacey noise; or put your foot on the monitor whilst gurning at the audience and 'riffing' or something!

That's what I would do.

[xgsjx]

You banned envelope filter?!?!

Why not have him in on writing some baselines with you? Get him interested in what he is playing & then he'll get a better understanding of what the bass' roll is.
A lot of my baselines follow the vocal melody, usually harmonizing.

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='guildbass' timestamp='1336772858' post='1651018']
That's probably the problem then for your bassist.. You are perhaps writing rock bass lines which are basically just chugging along on the beat and in the root....A rhythm guitar but one note one octave down.... Perfectly adequate for generic Rock ...Most '70's rock/pop lines were like that...But frankly....Dull to play...Great for the punter as you were replicating the original but not creative for the musician. it's work, not play...the best tunes are both...It isn't about fancy fills, it's about the groove and you don't need lots of notes to groove...Listen to T Rex's 'Get It On'...The entire song gets it's groove from the bass simply because in 'E' the bass plays a neat little off beat riff then switches to an on-beat chug for the 'A'
Take the bass out of T Rex and all you've got is Country and Western. Simple songs absolutely transformed by a really simple but 'real' bass line...And sooo cool to play right
[/quote]

I know what you're saying. The bass can really change the "groove" of the song. I think that is why it is important that you don't go overboard on the bassline, you just get to the point where you play so much on the bass that the groove is simply lost. I would like to think my basslines are slightly more interesting than simply "root note chugging" but don't just take my word for it, why not listen to it yourself?:

[url="http://www.facebook.com/HerFatalLegacy/app_178091127385"]http://www.facebook....pp_178091127385[/url]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1336776391' post='1651067']
Y'know, reading this is like being in a weird parallel universe. Or on a guitard forum.

It's really rather refreshing.
[/quote]

Lol scary I know. I think the problem is that I am not really a "bassist" as such since I play guitar and drums in equal measure (in fact I would say I play the drums more often right now, since it is a bit easier to pick up a pair of sticks than have to pick up the bass and switch the amp on and all that malarkey...)

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1336780463' post='1651148']
Skank (as always) has a marvellous point.
Imagine if Cliff Williams had said "No, these songs need many twiddly and exciting fills and poly-rhythmed marvellousness" AC/DC would be a pile of f**k-awful turd and nobody would listen to them. 8th note roots are great, if you play them right you will enjoy it.
I'm mostly playing one root note per bar in my current gig, and the trick is to make them sound nice and hold long enough. It is a lot more challenging than the chromatic hemi-semi-quaver madness that I have been known to do at times. (Any twat can play a lot of notes very fast, the trick is to know when to do it).
[/quote]

That's just it! I mean on the same subject of AC/DC, the drummer very rarely does anything exciting at all, in fact some songs are just 10 min of him playing the same beat. But it works for the type of music they play.

[quote]
I would be interested to hear the songs Eddie is talking about. I suspect they need restraint.
[/quote]

See above. I am not sure I would say they are as simple as all that really.

[quote name='dogload' timestamp='1336801373' post='1651219']
As a 'guitarist' I would encourage him to play more of the melodic or complicated bits wherever possible. This frees [i]you [/i]up to play easier stuff and make a big spacey noise; or put your foot on the monitor whilst gurning at the audience and 'riffing' or something!

That's what I would do.
[/quote]

yes...

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1336806596' post='1651240']
You banned envelope filter?!?!

Why not have him in on writing some baselines with you? Get him interested in what he is playing & then he'll get a better understanding of what the bass' roll is.
A lot of my baselines follow the vocal melody, usually harmonizing.
[/quote]

Well that is a good point. I guess the issue is that when I write songs, I get the idea for the "whole song" in my head. I suppose I have just had a bit of trouble writing songs co-operatively. I think one of these days I need to write a song with no bass on it and see how we get on with it.

Edited May 12, 2012 by EdwardHimself