Best mic for miking up?

[51m0n]

Me either, but in previous threads where I've pointed out the mid scooping eq on all these types of mics certain people have claimed its all nonsense, they sound great, its all win.

[ironside1966]

The only time there is a problem when opinion is presented has facts. Live engineers get it in the neck when people read these forums and start to feel that engineers are short changing them because they haven't got the microphone recommended or they use a DI.

Kick drum microphones tent to have a particle sound some people like the sound some don't
Some sounds or situations they can work well in others they can create problems if you are not carful.
A AKG D112 has a hyped frequency response, Fact
If you mic a bass cab up with a D112 It will sound S*** ,Opinion


To get things into perspective, if you look at the frequency curve of the D112 It is not that far removed from how many bass players will set there EQ

[51m0n]

[size=2][i]Caveate: This is a forum, everything presented herein is opinion. By everyone, backed up with datasheets from manufacturers or not.[/i][/size]

Except they have already eq'ed their cab that way, so now you have eq'ed it twice. If you want to cap[ture their cab sound with a mic, better stand well back with it in an anechoic chamber with a very good SDC as it will have a far flatter response - oh no thats not practical though. Bum

How does that curve in that there pretty piccie show the proxmiity bass lift effect of close micing exactly (upwards of 3dB of extra gain - at a conservative estimate - below 100Hz with a D112)? Which will exacerbate the issue. Funnily enough an RE20 is designed to not show proximity effect (the PR40 is very goo dwith this too IME).

That is also the absolutely on axis D112 curve, which is way out from going even slightly off axis (huge increase in the dip IIRC). You do always mic precisely on axis dont you? Me neither, its damn hard to do so with a D112, after all it swivels around quite freely in its specialist mic holder thingy, and away from the mix the bigger scoop in the mids is dangerously attractive. Put in the mix and its a PIA, IME.

Another view of the D112 data sheet...



See the boost at 1cm distance in the low end? 10dB, not 3dB.

And bass being the omnidirection thing it is you get a further boost in low end from being off axis.

Opinion, two mics of the exact same type one on kick, one on bass cab will make it harder to mix the two instruments, backed up by experience of doing just that, and doing the opposite, and also backed up by theory, and the experience of others. Carry on....

If you mic up a basss cab with a D112 it may sound great, now dont make life harder for youeself by using the same mic on the kick drum (its original intended tole) instead use a mic with an eq that will complement the choice you have already mde.

Simple mixing/tracking 101, as I was taught it.

A DI pre-eq will always give you a more accurate representation of low end than a cab and mic. It wont necessarily sound better but thats not what I just stated.

Edited May 14, 2012 by 51m0n

[51m0n]

[quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1336944405' post='1653155']
51m0n, I have the Red5 drum mic's and the Red5 valve microphone and they are are great for the money, better than a lot of the budget Chinese stuff.
[/quote]

I have the kick drum mic from Red5, and its absolutely killer, couldnt agree more!

[Beer of the Bass]

Just out of curiosity, is there anything not overly scooped that does a passable job for less money than the PR40, RE20 etc? Or is it one of those things where there isn't really a cheap alternative? The venue up the road from me uses the Red5 bass drum mic for bass, but I suspect that's out of availability rather than choice as their setup is a bit rough and ready, especially when you look at their house bass rig...

[ironside1966]

I understand what you are getting at but that's like saying you should never EQ a bass amp at the desk. Sometimes a little bottom end lift out front on the bass can be just what is needed others it can be overkill but nothing what a decent EQ can fix desk can't fix. it is not perfect but thats live sound for you, making the best out of the tools you have and the time available.

"If you mic up a bass cab with a D112 it may sound great, now don't make life harder for yourself by using the same mic on the kick drum (its original intended role) instead use a mic with an eq that will complement the choice you have already made"
I have never had any problems but I get you point that if you want a real low end to the bass you often need a clicky kick with little low energy , although you could side chain the bass comp with the kick.Vis versa if you want a thump on the bass drum you have to watch the low end of the bass.

"Simple mixing/tracking 101, as I was taught it".

Two completely different disciplines A studio engineer who say he can do live sound without the experience is like a guitarist saying he can play bass

[51m0n]

Mixing [i]is[/i] mixing though. The end goal is the same - a good representation of the band, best possible for the song etc etc

The same principles apply, and I've done enough live FOH to have a clue, ta

The issues are different wrt feedback on stage volume (causing bleed), monitoring etc etc Although IEMs pretty much make the monitoring the same in both disiplines.

Live sound the battle is always as much the room 's acoustic as anything else. And largely exacerbated by the level. In the studio the room acoustic is every bit as important (more so) and time can be spent moving instruments and amps around a decent live space to get the best place in the room.

Would you eq the bass and the kick the same on the desk then? Answer, if it worked right and sounded better for the mix as a whole.

In reality, very rarely, because you make the job of hearing the two instruments harder by doing so. More often than not as you say you are looking to sympathetically eq the two instruemtns to fill that area of the spectrum without quite stepping on each other's toes. So the point again is that you are effectively forcing your hand at the source and then having to eq around that decision even more at the desk. nd I do believe in using the least eq possible, which may be alot or hardly any, but if you can capture the sound at source better then you need less eq.

Sidechaining the kick to the bass is always another trick to get seperation in the time domain rather than frequency. Exellent, use it all the time. Of course not everyone has a spare compressor channel for ducking the bass in that case live. Or the time and knowledge to set it right so it doesnt make things worse in some parts of the set.

Whereas nearly everyone could choose something different mic wise between the kick and bass.

[ironside1966]

Hi 51mon.
I am not having a go at you but I do think you are coming at this from a studio perspective, it is not meant to be an insult. I have the experience and competence to work in most live situations but in the studio I still feel like I am just a good armature even though I have undertaken paid work and gained a first class Hon,s degree in music technology last year.( in spite of my bad spelling and punctuation).
You see things differently when you work in live situations regularly. I think you are missing the main point of my post, in live you work with limited time and resources often the first time you hear the band is in the sound check so choosing the right mic's is often not a option you go with what you have or what you know will work. The reason why a lot of Venues\ PA companies don't have PR40, RE20 etc is because mic's get stolen so people are reluctant spend too much on them.
it is not good advice for a bass player to tell a sound engineer is job you just **** them off.
51mon I have said this before, I respect you a lot, you have a great understanding and good way of explaining complicated subjects in a simple and concise way but the chink in your armour is it comes across in a way that makes it look like if people disagree with you are wrong and fails to take into account that there are many great engineers with many views and techniques who are all capable of getting a great sound. This is a site for bass players not engineers and I think it is far more important for musicians to understand that and the best way to get a great sound with a band live is to let the engineer get on with it.
There has been many live shows and many great recordings made with the D112 or similar microphone combination. even DSP amp Sims like the bass pod or Amplitude has the D112 modelled.

[dannybuoy]

So, a 'best mic' thread turned into a 'mic vs DI - FIGHT!' thread...

Any love for the Shure SM7B?

[umph]

for live use, a 57 is great. It's got awesome rejection and rolls off those pesky lows

[winterfire666]

shure sm7b = awesome bass sound
it captures the barefaced s12t perfectly and can easily handle the spl's
makes a 57 or 58 seem feeble and isnt to toppy like the ev's and some sennheisers

[bassintheface]

When playing bigger venues I used to have my cab mic'd with either a Beta 52a or an AKG D112 with a 2nd channel being DI'd.
This was more often than not off my sans amp.
They worked great together.

[JayPH]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1336859750' post='1652141']
If you love the sound of you bass with a D112, or a D6, or a 92a, or a 52a, or a red audio rdv1 or whatever the particular version is, then do the sound guy a favour and suggest your drummer to use anything else (ie a 57, a senn 421. a PR-40, an RE20 jeez, anything else) on the kick.....
[/quote]

Hi Si. I recorded drums recently with a 57 on the snare and a 58 inside the bass drum and wasnt happy with the results. I had to use these because I didn't have anything else. I'm not sure why the 57 never worked on the snare but it might have been poor placement. Do you think the 58 should have been on the drummer side recording the attack rather than inside the drum? The drums are rubbish aswell so that didn't help.

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='JayPH' timestamp='1337104650' post='1655584']
Hi Si. I recorded drums recently with a 57 on the snare and a 58 inside the bass drum and wasnt happy with the results. I had to use these because I didn't have anything else. I'm not sure why the 57 never worked on the snare but it might have been poor placement. Do you think the 58 should have been on the drummer side recording the attack rather than inside the drum? The drums are rubbish aswell so that didn't help.
[/quote]

You can get plenty of attack from recording inside the kick drum. It is a matter of accentuating the upper mids for the "click" sound which not everyone likes but it certainly gives you a lot of attack.

[51m0n]

[quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1337097411' post='1655423']
Hi 51mon.
I am not having a go at you but I do think you are coming at this from a studio perspective, it is not meant to be an insult. I have the experience and competence to work in most live situations but in the studio I still feel like I am just a good armature even though I have undertaken paid work and gained a first class Hon,s degree in music technology last year.( in spite of my bad spelling and punctuation).
You see things differently when you work in live situations regularly. I think you are missing the main point of my post, in live you work with limited time and resources often the first time you hear the band is in the sound check so choosing the right mic's is often not a option you go with what you have or what you know will work. The reason why a lot of Venues\ PA companies don't have PR40, RE20 etc is because mic's get stolen so people are reluctant spend too much on them.
it is not good advice for a bass player to tell a sound engineer is job you just **** them off.
[/quote]

You can have a go if you like, its fine, its all opinions, and I bear no hard feelings or grudges - and I can assure you my typing is far worse than yours mate

I do understand that in live there is limited time, believe it or not there is limited time in the studio too. With the cost of studio time its every bit as high pressure.

Even so, every time I track I try something new, not much, and I try to quanitfy things as best I can and maybe just change one or two things up each time. Otherwise you dont learn anything new. Likewise every time I mix.

I'm certainly not an FOH expert, I've done a fair amount of it over a long old time, in various situations, and made do with short time to soundcheck, and whatever kit was handy (and been thankful of my soldering skills to get the PA out of bother too many times to mention). I do understand the pressure to go for a cookie cutter approach (we always use this mic, why? Cos its the one that says BassAmp on it in marker pen - oh, great )

You are talking from the perspective of the live engineer working through N bands a night/week/month year. And that is a hugely valid position to all of us. I took the OP to be from the perspective of a bassist looking to get [i]the right kit for himself[/i]. That is a different perspective, and thus worthy of some different opinions.

To remind us both of the OP:-

[quote name='grunge666' timestamp='1336753745' post='1650575']
(sic?)

I'm sick of DI-ing!

Every bleedin' gig - guitar cabs miked up - drums miked up - bass DI, grrrr

[b]I've got £££ worth of gear[/b] - why is there always an insistence of DI' ing the bass?

Well, I've had enough - I'm never using Di again -[i][b] if they've got an XLR cable, they can stick a mike[/b][/i] on the end of it and enjoy the delights of a SVT3 and a BF S12 instead of a pre-EQ SVT3 lost in the mix somewhere.

Now I've decided on this path of (self)righteousness - [b]what do the BC fathful consider the best mic for the job?[/b]
[/quote]

So clearly I didnt read the OP properly , how typical. In that case the best mic is the one the soundguy sticks on your cab. It may well not be what I would do in this case, but I'm not there, its not my rig, and I cant hear the room.

However since he asked for [i]our opinions[/i] I thought it reasonable to offer mine, stressing it was an opinion. Which means its open for debunking, and can safely be ignored by any and all who dont wish to take it. Really I wont be hurt,

[quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1337097411' post='1655423']
51mon I have said this before, I respect you a lot, you have a great understanding and good way of explaining complicated subjects in a simple and concise way but the chink in your armour is it comes across in a way that makes it look like if people disagree with you are wrong and fails to take into account that there are many great engineers with many views and techniques who are all capable of getting a great sound. This is a site for bass players not engineers and I think it is far more important for musicians to understand that and the best way to get a great sound with a band live is to let the engineer get on with it.
There has been many live shows and many great recordings made with the D112 or similar microphone combination. even DSP amp Sims like the bass pod or Amplitude has the D112 modelled.
[/quote]

Cheers! I do definitely try and explain things as I understand them, or have found them to be as concisely as possible, but with that comes the issue of being misconstrued sometimes. I'm glad I get it right or mainly right at least some of the time.

Everything I've said on this forum ever has been my opinion, backed up my my experience, backed up where necessary by empirical data (or at least the closest thing either of us have for that).

If it were not for the fact we were all asked for our opinions, I wouldnt put mine forward at all. But since we were, I did. But it was expressed as my opinion.

As you say, plenty of great sounding live productions, and great sounding mixes have been made with a D112 on bass. At least as many have been made with a U47, RE20, 421, 57, 58, crikey even a 4038 can sound fantastic on bass if you are careful not to blow the ribbon on it! I've made great sounding bass tones with a blueball mic (actually that is a totally excellent kick mic if you want a kick without the deep bass and sub on it - massively recommended in that application! Coupled with a subkick it can be awesome - try it!!).

The only rule is there are no rules, the only way of saying a thing really works is trying it and listening objectively. The rest is irrelevant.

[quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1337015210' post='1654058']
The only time there is a problem when opinion is presented has facts. Live engineers get it in the neck when people read these forums and start to feel that engineers are short changing them because they haven't got the microphone recommended or they use a DI.
[/quote]

I have often said on this forum that the way to go is a DI for the low end, and a mic for the top end [i]if your amp provides gain[/i], since you cant get the low end from close micing the cones, and you cant get the drive from a DI. I have no problem with DI's at all.

But I haven't presented opinions as facts. I've presented opinions as opinions, and when you have suggested factual evidence (ie the D112 frequency plot) I merely showed more facts that tell a more complete story about that exact same mic.

My first post started like this:-
[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1336859750' post='1652141']
I'm going to get hung by people again for this, [i][b]but I dont like[/b][/i] kick drum mics on bass, especially (really really really especially) if there is a kick drum mic on the kick drum.
[/quote]

That would be me saying "in my opinion" as hard as I can!

As with all this sound engineering stuff, there are many many ways to do it. If the result sounds great, then the way you did it is great. Thats it, nothing else matters (provided its safe).

If I am asked my opinion, I'll give it. If someone challenges my opinion I will try and explain why that is my opinion better. If someone can show me why (other than it "works for me", I think we've covered that off) my opinion is hogwash, I promise I will change my opinion (trawl through enough of my posts and you will see this happen before your eyes on plenty of topics . But if there is more to the story than what is presented in the response I dont see why I shouldnt point that out too.

In any case, you all know my opinion now, feel fre to ignore it completely!

[51m0n]

[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1337098625' post='1655443']
So, a 'best mic' thread turned into a 'mic vs DI - FIGHT!' thread...

Any love for the Shure SM7B?
[/quote]

Not at all, it turned into a kick drum mics vs non-kick drum mics death match

[joegarcia]

I mic up bass cabs all the time and I usually use a mic with a fairly flat-ish response too. My personal favourites are: Beyerdynamic M88, EV RE20 and the Sennheiser 421 and AKG D12E. No big news there. I also have had very good results from a Beyerdynamic TGX-50 which isn't flat and does have a bit of a scoop.

Generally though, if I didn't have any of the above (although I am lucky enough to have them all in my mic box, bit of a mic hoarder) I'd usually go for a 57 or a 58 with a DI (with a high cut) over a D112 or Beta52a or other scooped kick mic. Depends on the band/bassist/rig/room/style though really...

[51m0n]

[quote name='JayPH' timestamp='1337104650' post='1655584']
Hi Si. I recorded drums recently with a 57 on the snare and a 58 inside the bass drum and wasnt happy with the results. I had to use these because I didn't have anything else. I'm not sure why the 57 never worked on the snare but it might have been poor placement. Do you think the 58 should have been on the drummer side recording the attack rather than inside the drum? The drums are rubbish aswell so that didn't help.
[/quote]

Big topic mate!

First point, new skins (I like single ply on the toms, single ply coated snare batter head, single ply snare resonant head, single ply resonant head on the kick and either single or double ply on the batter side depending on how much ring you want), and properly tuned (youtube Bob Gatzen tuning, I like the way he tunes drums). A towel does fine for dampening the kick, folded up so its just resting slightly on the heads an inch or so. You dont want to kill em dead, or you get no tone from them, but you want a shorter ring than for live usually. Experiment with dampening the kit as little as possilbe to control any annoying rings. try to see if yo ucan tune it so there is as little sympathetic tom resonance as possible.

If the kit isnt sounding absolutely stella then it wont record well. You cant polish a turd.

If you can then try the kit in a few places in the room to see where it works best. Also look for a place where the kit sounds best from in each case - and stick a mic there to capture the room if you can.

Overheads are a must for a remotely modern sound, even a single overhead (stereo is not truly necessary), but something, unless you are going for a super coloured sound (like the early funk stuff) which can be achieved with a single mic and an overdriven pre/tape.

OH must be in phase with the rest of the drums (and each other if there are two). They must also be placed such that the snare/kick sit in the center of the field when the faders are at 0dBFs, which isnt achieved by placing the mics somewhere on either side of the kit, get a tape measure or some string and actually measure the distance from the kick and snare on each to keep them in phase. They should be equidistant from the kick and equidistant from the snare ideally. They should sound great on their own too!

There are many ways of achieving stereo from two mics, A/B, M/S, X-Y, the most natural I've heard on drums is [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORTF_stereo_technique"]ORTF[/url] which was a kind of revelation to me recently, I'll certainly be using that when I want super realistic drums in the future.

George Massenburg knows his beans, in terms of mic placement for drums, this is a decent video to give you some ideas:-
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZOVZQgXl9k&feature=relmfu[/media]

A 58 in the kick will give you plenty of attack, but dont be afraid of the eq, that modern kick drum sound has a lot of energy up as hich as 8Khz, and is highly scooped. A 58 may not be the best weapon for that, but placed carefully you should get a fine recording (although it wont have a lot of sub!). Whilst listening to the drum being kicked move the mic (or rather get someone with ear defenders to move the mic) and listen for a sweet spot. This is time consuming, so some rough guides, point directly at the point the beater strikes the drum to get click. Pull the mic back within the shell to find a good resonant peak with some bass in it. Its not easy or quick and with limited tools you have to get creative, but it can be done.

You can fashion your own subkick by wiring an 8" to 12" speaker up to an XLR cable and suspending it as a mic in front of the kick drum. It will only pick up deep bass - hence the name, but it can really add something if all you have is a 58!

Most imprtantly give yourself time to get the kit to sound great in the room, and the mics in the best position to capture the kit. A day is not wasted time if come mix time everything is peachy.

Lastly dont gate whe recording, leave that to mix time, try and get the mic position so good that you dont need eq, but if you have desk eq and are confident then use it if it will not make things worse at mix time.

Come mix time look to use the close mics to enhance the OH, and the room to replace a reverb.

Sorry for the mega thread derail!

Edited May 15, 2012 by 51m0n

[joegarcia]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1337116102' post='1655855']You cant polish a turd.
[/quote]

Ah, but you can roll it in glitter.

[51m0n]

[quote name='joegarcia' timestamp='1337118929' post='1655940']
Ah, but you can roll it in glitter.
[/quote]

The herpes of craft materials....

[joegarcia]

Haha.

[JayPH]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' timestamp='1337108628' post='1655701']
You can get plenty of attack from recording inside the kick drum. It is a matter of accentuating the upper mids for the "click" sound which not everyone likes but it certainly gives you a lot of attack.
[/quote]
Yes, that makes sense I was lacking any real thud though I had to try and sort it with eq. We're trying to record drums again soon so I'll bare this in mind
[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1337116102' post='1655855']
Big topic mate!
[/quote]
No foolin. sh*t
After reading all that I think we were dead lucky with the sound we ended up with considering we had no idea whatsoever what we were doing.
As always Si, it's an education. Thanks a lot, this will come in handy as we are trying to record the drums again soon.

[Jamesrt2004]

Reason flat DI soundes better is due to bassists general inability to actually get a good tone! Go to a studio and any decent engineer just sets up the bass for them as this is the case.

(probably due to bassist either wanting +11 on bass or try get it sounding guitsr like)

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1337116102' post='1655855']You cant polish a turd.[/quote]

Yes you can! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJ9fy1qSFI

As for micing, I don't think there's a need. Unless you're playing huge venues, there's going to be bleed into the FoH sound from your cabs anyway (assuming you're not using a mini amp) and a post EQ DI should give you your sound. Don't be afraid to put your foot down with soundmen if there's something you need from your sound, don't be rude about it but they might not know what you're supposed to sound like, they're there to make you sound good, not to make you sound like someone else.

I've been told to plug into a DI box quite a few times and when I refuse, I always get the look from soundmen as though they're daring me to piss them off so they can turn me off in the mix. If your gear stands up to scrutiny though, they'll be fine. They just assume that the average joe knows squat about gear (probably true tbf) and has just bought the fanciest amp they can and it must be heard even though the DI barely works! I had a long chat with one engineer and we finished discussing me plugging into a DI vs my amp with me saying "well if my DI sounds naff, then it's my band that's affected", he agreed to DI my head, then after the gig came up to me and told me how good it sounded. If the DI on your amp isn't very good though then I suggest you just deal with being DI'd pre.

[umph]

my favorite combo in the studio is m81 and re20 about 4" each from half way between the cone and the edge