Electronic Tuners

[Linus27]

[quote name='dood' post='180188' date='Apr 18 2008, 10:19 PM']Ahhhhh maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnn there's nothing worse than hearing someone playing the 'tuning song' halfway through a set, when their ears have already been assaulted by an hour of the drummer's cymbal slices. Even worse when they attempt to do it at full volume! Grrrr... so unprofessional!

Silent tuning all the way![/quote]

Our guitarist used to do this. Winds the hell up out of me. I agree, so unprofessional.

[tauzero]

[quote name='chris_b' post='180401' date='Apr 19 2008, 11:56 AM']A few years ago Marcus Malone ran a jam night in south London. You got 2 numbers and if anyone took 10 mins to tune up he counted that as their first number. After a few arguments everyone came on stage ready to play!![/quote]
This is something that seriously annoys me at the open mic night I play at (and occasionally host). I've got a tuner available for people to use if they're so ill-prepared that they don't have one, and still some people go on stage and start tuning up (to the house instruments, which have been tuned using my tuner...).

Incidentally, I've got three of these [url="http://www.eaglemusicshop.com/details1.asp/ProductID/3931/sid/339/tanglewood-e205-tuner.htm"]Tanglewood E205 tuners[/url], which I keep in cases with basses, as I have an appalling memory. Also have a couple of Korg CA-30s (the chromatic ones), which are OK but not very resilient and tend to go wonky if dropped from a table onto a tiled floor.

Back to the original post, one guitarist I used to play with didn't like to use electronic tuners (he had a tuning fork) but would get me to tune his guitar up using my tuner. Ah well, he's off exasperating musicians in Wales now...

[foal30]

you got to be able to tune your instrument by ear.

but if your on a session or gig it is nearly always a top idea to tune all guitars through the same tuner.

[Rich]

[quote name='foal30' post='182645' date='Apr 22 2008, 11:18 AM']you got to be able to tune your instrument by ear.[/quote]
Why? It's a good thing to be able to do, but why should it be essential?

[chris_b]

[quote name='foal30' post='182645' date='Apr 22 2008, 11:18 AM']....you got to be able to tune your instrument by ear....[/quote]
Not on stage you don't!! Not while an audience or band members are waiting.
Be professional; use a tuner to be in tune, quickly and quietly. If a tuner is running out of true, get another, get 2. It's not rocket science!!!!!

[foal30]

not on stage...
yeah sort of looks like my second line, you think?
If you all use the same tuner the variations (if any) of the individual tuners is eliminated.

how can it not be imperative to be able to tune your instrument?
really, it should be self-evident that we have the faculty to know our instrument is tunable to a performance level by ourselves.
people forget sh*t, tuners, spare strings and 9v's must be at the top of the list! It, to me, is a tenant of respect to the audience, employers, bandmates, whoever that you actually can hear the tuning "vaguenesses" of your instrument.

Ear Training in the age of TAB is a dying art and this will be bad news. The most basic place to start is the ritual / function of tuning your instrument.

maybe.

[FJ1200]

[quote name='s_u_y_*' post='181818' date='Apr 21 2008, 01:38 PM']Really? I always found tuners on PODS on anything but Pro series were slightly slow to register. Nothing too annoying though.[/quote]

Does have a slight delay but find I can tune much quicker with that than with my battery one.

[tauzero]

[quote name='foal30' post='182645' date='Apr 22 2008, 11:18 AM']you got to be able to tune your instrument by ear.[/quote]
I can tune mine within a semitone by ear. If the whole band did that, we'd have jazz. Er, a cacophony.

Do you mean tune up when the strings are already pretty much right? And how do you guarantee that your right will be the same as the guitarists's right (which is probably the drummer's left)?

[Rich]

[quote name='foal30' post='183425' date='Apr 23 2008, 01:37 AM']not on stage...
yeah sort of looks like my second line, you think?
If you all use the same tuner the variations (if any) of the individual tuners is eliminated.

how can it not be imperative to [b]be able to tune your instrument[/b]?
really, it should be self-evident that we have the faculty to know our instrument is tunable to a performance level by ourselves.
people forget sh*t, tuners, spare strings and 9v's must be at the top of the list! It, to me, is a tenant of respect to the audience, employers, bandmates, whoever that you actually can hear the tuning "vaguenesses" of your instrument.

Ear Training in the age of TAB is a dying art and this will be bad news. The most basic place to start is the ritual / function of tuning your instrument.

maybe.[/quote]Being able to tune your instrument is one thing, being able to tune it [i]completely by ear [/i]is another. Sure, we can all do the 5th fret/open string thing of the 7th fret/5th fret harmonics thing, as rough as they might be, but -- and here's the clincher -- where do you get your first reference note from? Do you go by ear, "yeah I think that's roughly an E"..? do you ask your keys man for a note..? or do you go to your friendly little tuner?
I fail to see why it should be an absolute must to have what amounts to perfect pitch.

[foal30]

yeah I think perfect pitch would be a nightmare, more of a curse than a blessing anyway.
Relative pitch is important.

yeah I do all three methods you said depending on the day/requirement
always use a tuner in the studio or gig.
I can tune my bass by ear, it may be out of tune for sure, but it is in tune to itself, if you know what I mean. It sounds in tune to me across the range.
and absolutely peoples in-tuneness is as variable as different electronic tuners.
hence my comment on using the SAME TUNER.

[gafbass02]

Im also curious about the peterson strobostomp, it looks great, but id be worried about it taking ages, and you sounding out with everyone else that didnt tune to a peterson!?
Anyone got any knows?

[tauzero]

[quote name='foal30' post='184285' date='Apr 24 2008, 08:19 AM']I can tune my bass by ear, it may be out of tune for sure, but it is in tune to itself, if you know what I mean. It sounds in tune to me across the range.
and absolutely peoples in-tuneness is as variable as different electronic tuners.
hence my comment on using the SAME TUNER.[/quote]
None of my bands use the same tuners (and haven't since they stopped being major investments and started becoming affordable). None of us have any problems with not using the same tuners. Um, except the once fairly recently, when I somehow managed to recalibrate the one I was using (Korg CA-30s can go a bit funny after they've fallen off the table onto the tiled floor a couple of times).

[Jono Bolton]

I've had a Boss TU-2 for about a year now, it's brilliant. I used to use a little Korg Chromatic tuner and it was good, but when my band was first gigging (before the Boss) I always found I was slightly out of tune, and had to try and tune myself back in to the rest of the band. Turns out I must've bumped one of the buttons on my tuner and it was at 444Hz instead of 440Hz, so I was always slightly sharp :blush:

[vmaxblues]

In answer to gaffbass, I have a petersen strobe tuner, which i use at home, and it is super accurate, but to be honest, too accurate for stage use, it is a super fine tuner, I use it for setting up intonation on my basses at home, and nothing is better.

For stage use i use the planet waves pedal tuner, brilliant, dead simple to use and effective, basically checking my tuning every third or so song. or after a particularly energetic number, slap etc, it takes seconds and can be done whilst singer is doing the chat, I cannot imagine not user a tuner live. Our guitarist uses his me50 too, there is nothing worse than being out of tune live.

[Doc B]

I got an electronic tuner as a present not long after I got my first bass and although it was great, it did mean I didn't learn to tune by ear properly for a very long time. I now usually tune my basses by ear using the 5th and 7th fret harmonics.

I use my little Korg tuner a lot as I record my playing a lot and it would be a nightmare if I wasn't tuned to pitch when I want to add a guitar or bass part. All the bands I've been in have tuned to my e-string as they've seen me with my tuner.

[Bassmouseman]

Boss TU2 pedal tuner. mute and tune. Why make it more difficult then it needs to be!!

[niceguyhomer]

I've just got rid of my rack mounted Korg DTR 1000 - looked pretty, lots of flashing lights but it didn't mute when I tuned up. yeh, I could have bought a pedal to mute it but that just complicates things. So I thought I'd go back to the trusty Boss TU-2 but the shop I was in didn't have any and recommended this..



Best tuner I've ever had bar none.

[lowhand_mike]

my tuner aint nothing special, cost about £10 or something. does the job but really doesnt like the open G so that gets done 12th fret harmonic. in tune with the rest of the band, shame ya cant get a tuner for the singer
cant understand how anyone could not use a tuner to be honest.

[ashgeezer]

I would be lost without mine, if it broke today would commit suicide, its a brilliant piece of kit, i bought it years ago when i first started learning then i packed up altogether but kept the tuner, its only a crappy little seiko thing but the 9v battereies last forever and ever, when the battery does die i just rob one out of the smoke alarm ( bad move i know) and when i started up again last year i"ve used it everyday since. I LOVE IT MORE THAN THE WIFE (JUST DONT TELL HER)

[SteveO]

It's strange to think that such a small problem can cause so much greif (that's small as in easily fixed, not small as in of little worth). I always tune the E with the zoom pedal when practicing (I wish I could remember the model ) then tune by ear for the rest. I agree with [b]foal30[/b], you gotta be able to tune up by ear, or at least be able to tell when you're out of tune. Batteries can die, strings stretch, machine heads slip... whatever, if you cant tell when you're going out of tune then you should really include it in your practice routines. It's the one thing that everyone recognises. it doesn't matter how good your band is, if you're not in tune then it sounds sh*te and everyone at the gig will think you're sh*te (with the possible exception of musicians who'll think you're just sh*te for not tuning up properly)
When it comes to rehersals and gigs, I always insist on everyone tuning to one tuner (or to the keyboards if present), then I'll do a quick check against my pedal. As mentioned above there are two standards for A (see FJ1200's post, [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=17656&view=findpost&p=181541"]#45[/url]) plus the tollerances in the electronics, plus accidently recallibrating the unit ([b]jono b[/b], post [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=17656&view=findpost&p=184884"]#65[/url]). If my pedal concurs then I know i can use that for emergency tuning between songs if necessary. If not then i'll recallibrate my pedal
It might sound a bit excessive, but in practice it's dead simple (9 times out of 10 all the tuners agree anyway, and it's worth it to catch that 1 gig in 10)

Anyway, back to my point... We're musicians. we know that being out of tune or refusing to tune to each other is a crime of the highest order. What's the problem? we're either all in tune or it's going to sound sh*te. Tell your git-artist put their ego aside, or you'll all sound terrible, them included. If they really refuse to tune up properly then tune to them, then sack them after the gig / refuse to dep with them again etc. Gonna stop now before this turns into a rant aginst playing with amateurs

[chris_b]

Since the advent of electric tuners tuning should have become a non event for everyone. In the various bands that I play in I play with keys, harmonica, assorted brass, an accordion and a guitarist using a Peterson strobe tuner, everyone is always in tune and no one ever tunes up using the same tuner or to each other. Why would you want to? If your tuner is working it isn't necessary. If your tuner isn't working then it is immediately obvious and you borrow the use of one for the night.

I'm amazed there can be so many differing opinions about getting in tune!

[SteveO]

[quote name='chris_b' post='205483' date='May 24 2008, 01:06 PM']Since the advent of electric tuners tuning should have become a non event for everyone... [snip][/quote]
Yup, it should, but it aint, but I've never been one to have blind faith in electronics. As you say though, it'll be obvious that you're out of tune so there's no point in insisting that you've just tuned up to your tuner so everyone else must be wrong.
Interestingly when I played with the 12 piece soul band on trombone tuning wasn't an issue. I wonder if bad tuning is not as noticable as the numbers of instruments increase. We all tuned by ear to the main Gitarist and never had a problem.

[bnt]

[quote name='Oscar South' post='180991' date='Apr 20 2008, 12:56 PM']even tuning with the fifth and seventh fret harmonics, so you're tuning to identical overtones? can you elaborate on this because its interesting.[/quote]
Only just seen this - let me try a quick version:
When you do the 5th & 7th fret harmonic thing, you're tuning the strings to a ratio of 4:3, a perfect 4th harmonic.
5th fret harmonic = 1/4 string = 4x frequency (2 octaves)
7th fret harmonic = 1/3 string = 3x frequency (octave + major 5th)

However, on an [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament"]equal temperament[/url] (ET) instrument like the bass, for the ratios to add up correctly over the strings, each string needs to be 5 ET semitones apart. That is close to a perfect 4th, but not exactly the same, in terms of the frequency ratio between the strings:
Harmonics: 4:3 = 1.3333 ... = 4.98 semitones *
5 semitones: 2^(5/12) = 1.3348 ...
Say you have a 6-string bass, so you do that 5 times (B1 -> C3 = 25 semitones), and compare results:
Harmonics: (4/3)^5 = 4.214 = 24.9 semitones *
25 semitones: 2^(25/12)= 4.238

The error in ratios is about 0.5%, which might not sound like much, but if you convert the harmonics figure back to semitones, it comes to about 24.9 semitones*. If you follow the harmonics method exactly, the High C will be about 1/10 semitone [i]flat[/i], which is definitely audible. The error might not be much per string, but it compounds, like interest on a mortgage. On a 7-string (30 semitones), the error climbs to 0.12 semitones.

ps: maybe the extreme example of a theoretical 13-string bass would help:
Intervals = 12 x 5 = 60 semitones = 5 octaves between low and 5 strings.
60 semitones = 2^(60/12) = 32 = 2^5 = exactly 5 octaves
harmonics: (4/3)^12 = 31.7 = 59.765 semitones*.

"quick version", eh?

* to convert frequency ratios back to ET semitones, the formula looks like this: 12* log2(f), where "log2" is the "base 2 logarithm of f" = 12*log(f) / log(2)

Edited May 24, 2008 by bnt

[Oscar South]

[quote name='bnt' post='205520' date='May 24 2008, 01:12 PM']Only just seen this - let me try a quick version:
When you do the 5th & 7th fret harmonic thing, you're tuning the strings to a ratio of 4:3, a perfect 4th harmonic.
5th fret harmonic = 1/4 string = 4x frequency (2 octaves)
7th fret harmonic = 1/3 string = 3x frequency (octave + major 5th)

However, on an [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament"]equal temperament[/url] (ET) instrument like the bass, for the ratios to add up correctly over the strings, each string needs to be 5 ET semitones apart. That is close to a perfect 4th, but not exactly the same, in terms of the frequency ratio between the strings:
Harmonics: 4:3 = 1.3333 ... = 4.98 semitones *
5 semitones: 2^(5/12) = 1.3348 ...
Say you have a 6-string bass, so you do that 5 times (B1 -> C3 = 25 semitones), and compare results:
Harmonics: (4/3)^5 = 4.214 = 24.9 semitones *
25 semitones: 2^(25/12)= 4.238

The error in ratios is about 0.5%, which might not sound like much, but if you convert the harmonics figure back to semitones, it comes to about 24.9 semitones*. If you follow the harmonics method exactly, the High C will be about 1/10 semitone [i]flat[/i], which is definitely audible. The error might not be much per string, but it compounds, like interest on a mortgage. On a 7-string (30 semitones), the error climbs to 0.12 semitones.

ps: maybe the extreme example of a theoretical 13-string bass would help:
Intervals = 12 x 5 = 60 semitones = 5 octaves between low and 5 strings.
60 semitones = 2^(60/12) = 32 = 2^5 = exactly 5 octaves
harmonics: (4/3)^12 = 31.7 = 59.765 semitones*.

"quick version", eh?

* to convert frequency ratios back to ET semitones, the formula looks like this: 12* log2(f), where "log2" is the "base 2 logarithm of f" = 12*log(f) / log(2)[/quote]

Cheers, this is pretty interesting. When tuning by ear I use fifth fret to open string now, I only use harmonics when I need to quickly bring a rogue string back in tune if it goes out.

Edited May 24, 2008 by Oscar South