Commando Jack Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 [quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1344504842' post='1765466'] A waste of money. Each ear canal is unique in shape therefore generic plugs, which suggests a one jacket fits all scenario,simply is not credible, even for occasional gigging. A short sharp exposure to the crack of a snare drum or a thunderous bass rig is all that is required to cause permanent hearing loss and/or tinnitus. Once the damage is done thats it. There is no going back. nothing makes sense other than to invest in quality moulded plugs [/quote] In my experience the difference between moulded and universal fit plugs is comfort, not noise reduction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 For the past few years I've been using those foam plugs that literally block out what seems like half the actual volume. They can make the sound muffled but I never go home from gigs or rehearsals with ringing now. Are these doing the job? They aren't great for sound quality but it seems to save my hearing. If I take them out mid rehearsal the volume increase is insane. I have another set from boots which were roughly £10 and tend to have less of a drastic effect abc less muffling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commando Jack Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1344512366' post='1765642'] For the past few years I've been using those foam plugs that literally block out what seems like half the actual volume. They can make the sound muffled but I never go home from gigs or rehearsals with ringing now. Are these doing the job? They aren't great for sound quality but it seems to save my hearing. If I take them out mid rehearsal the volume increase is insane. I have another set from boots which were roughly £10 and tend to have less of a drastic effect abc less muffling. [/quote] Yes they are doing the job in that they are stopping dangerous SPLs gettting to your ears. The "musician's" plugs only differ in that they reduce the volume more uniformly so that everything sounds the same but just quieter without muffling. Edited August 9, 2012 by Commando Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brensabre79 Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 If you really can't afford to go the molded route, the one type of generic ear plugs I have found that do work are called Noizezz. They come with 4 different sizes of molds to better fit your ear, into which you put the relevant attenuator, these attenuators are the same kind you get with molded plugs, its just that rather than molded, the plugs are sized. The reason they are good is that more-so than any other type of generic plugs you can still hear what is going on right across the frequency range and they can reduce by 25dB not just 15dB which makes a huge difference. I tried the molded 15dB ones and still had ringing after gigs, really these are for listening to music through a loud hi-fi, not at a gig, onstage. The molded ones, with maximum reduction is really the way to go. At present Tinnitus is irreversible. Period. There is no cure, only prevention. There have been some reports recently about treatments, these are basically lengthy conditioning programmes where your brain is taught to ignore the symptoms. It is not a cure, just a way to help you deal with the symptoms. And the top end frequency response of your ears is still damaged by the way. The reason your ears ring is that the tiny hairs inside your ears become fatigued with exposure to loud noise, when they do they fold over with tiredness which in turn sends a constant signal to your brain to tell it there is some noise going on. in extreme cases they fold permanently and even break. These hairs are only designed to pick up the higher frequencies, the lower ones are handled elsewhere in the ear, hence the high pitched nature of Tinnitus and the reason that the first thing to go when you start to lose your hearing is the high frequencies. Eventually, through long exposure the hairs do not recover from their limp state and there you have a permanent, irreversible ringing in the ears. University of Sussex are working on research to repair the causes of Tinnitus at the moment, and have been for a number of years, but breakthroughs are slow and a proper effective treatment is a long long way off, if it is even possible at all. Now let me ask you, do you think £150 for some decent ear plugs that will prevent Tinnitus too much money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commando Jack Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 [quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1344513660' post='1765679'] Now let me ask you, do you think £150 for some decent ear plugs that will prevent Tinnitus too much money? [/quote] Considering the universal fit brand "Noizezz" you linked to cost [url="http://www.proguarduk.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=39"]£16.65[/url] and will accomplish the same as a moulded plug i.e. reduce the amount of noise going into your ear to a safe level, some people may consider £150 too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 This might not be entirely appropriate given the unfortunate affliction being discussed, but SHOUTING the topic title probably doesn't help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leroydiamond Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Anyone that considers £150 too much for custom made plugs which offer the very best protection,is mistaken. Just ask anybody that suffers from tinnitus as a result of overexposure to loud volumes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slobluesine Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 have you tried acupuncture? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademan_98 Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) [quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1344525406' post='1765970'] Anyone that considers £150 too much for custom made plugs which offer the very best protection,is mistaken. Just ask anybody that suffers from tinnitus as a result of overexposure to loud volumes. [/quote] While I agree with what you say, I would have to sell both of my basses to make the £150. I bought £20 Elacin ER20 from ebay and I no longer suffer at gigs or after rehearsal. I should really save up and buy moulded ones as I do think they are the answer. Edited August 9, 2012 by Blademan_98 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skol303 Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 [quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1344525406' post='1765970'] Anyone that considers £150 too much for custom made plugs which offer the very best protection,is mistaken. Just ask anybody that suffers from tinnitus as a result of overexposure to loud volumes. [/quote] Speaking as someone basing their entire knowledge of this subject on Google... ! ... from what I've read the benefit of more expensive (£100+) earplugs over cheaper ones (£10) isn't primarily about offering better protection for your ears - it's about offering a better quality of sound. I could be very wrong here, but that's what the reviews I'm reading seem to suggest - that you can protect your ears cheaply (cotton wool being the bargain basement option!), but if you want to do so AND maintain clarity across the frequency spectrum, then you need to spend some money. At least that's why I opted for cheaper E20s - if I've got this wrong then happy to be corrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commando Jack Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 [quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1344527531' post='1766023'] I could be very wrong here, but that's what the reviews I'm reading seem to suggest - that you can protect your ears cheaply (cotton wool being the bargain basement option!), but if you want to do so AND maintain clarity across the frequency spectrum, then you need to spend some money. [/quote] The people who specialise in making (and selling) moulded earplugs will tell you that they are more secure and seal better, which is one of the most important factors in protecting you from noise (and they are right about this being a factor). Moulded plugs are however not completely immune to breaking this seal, particularly if you are singing or moving your head around a lot. Btw, it's important to discuss this with the audiologist if you do get them done, so that they can make the cast more appropriately. Universal earplugs tend to solve the seal problem by being oversized eg. for foam plugs, you squidge them down, put them in your ear and then they "snug up" to block your ear canal Silicone ones like ER-20's are shaped to press against the ear canal wall. Both can be very effective but uncomfortable if you get ones which are simply too big and put too much outward pressure on the ear canal. Too small and they are completely ineffective because the seal is poor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leroydiamond Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1344527531' post='1766023'] Speaking as someone basing their entire knowledge of this subject on Google... ! ... from what I've read the benefit of more expensive (£100+) earplugs over cheaper ones (£10) isn't primarily about offering better protection for your ears - it's about offering a better quality of sound. I could be very wrong here, but that's what the reviews I'm reading seem to suggest - that you can protect your ears cheaply (cotton wool being the bargain basement option!), but if you want to do so AND maintain clarity across the frequency spectrum, then you need to spend some money. At least that's why I opted for cheaper E20s - if I've got this wrong then happy to be corrected. [/quote] Essentially you are correct. But I am assuming that the majority of contributors to this forum are bass players who will require clarity across the frequency spectrum, which is crucial in being able to deliver a quality performance on ones instrument. If you use quality gear the last thing you need is ear protection that offers less than this. There is no point in spending money on a good instrument and back line unless you can hear it as clearly as possible without damaging one's hearing. So as you say ,the more expensive option delivers a better quality of sound and surely this is what musicians should be seeking. you get what you pay for. I was using universal fit Er 20's, but despite this I developed Tinnitus and hearing loss. After being examined by an Audiologist I was informed that my ear canals were too narrow for universal plugs to be effective so moved on to moulded plugs and the difference is day and night both in levels of protection and clarity Edited August 9, 2012 by leroydiamond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brensabre79 Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 [quote name='Commando Jack' timestamp='1344518550' post='1765828'] Considering the universal fit brand "Noizezz" you linked to cost [url="http://www.proguarduk.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=39"]£16.65[/url] and will accomplish the same as a moulded plug i.e. reduce the amount of noise going into your ear to a safe level, some people may consider £150 too much. [/quote] I did not say that they accomplish the same thing as the molded ones. In fact I quite emphatically said the molded ones were best but if you couldn't afford them these ones work quite well and they are based on the same technology. The difference is you won't get the same fit as a molded one and as such this may impair the effectiveness of the ear plug. I'm not trying to present an argument for or against any product here. I suffer from tinnitus, sometimes quite badly to the point where I put my hands over my ears in vein to try and stop the noise. It is unpleasant, and in some countries used as a torture method. i am trying to help you and anyone else interested prevent a similar experience by passing on what I have learned from over 5 years of experimenting with different earplugs and talking to experts. At the end of the day they all do the job of attenuating the sound, whether you can hear what is going on around you or not with them in is down to the quality of your plugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commando Jack Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 [quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1344599172' post='1766882'] I did not say that they accomplish the same thing as the molded ones. In fact I quite emphatically said the molded ones were best but if you couldn't afford them these ones work quite well and they are based on the same technology. The difference is you won't get the same fit as a molded one and as such this may impair the effectiveness of the ear plug. I'm not trying to present an argument for or against any product here. I suffer from tinnitus, sometimes quite badly to the point where I put my hands over my ears in vein to try and stop the noise. It is unpleasant, and in some countries used as a torture method. i am trying to help you and anyone else interested prevent a similar experience by passing on what I have learned from over 5 years of experimenting with different earplugs and talking to experts. At the end of the day they all do the job of attenuating the sound, whether you can hear what is going on around you or not with them in is down to the quality of your plugs. [/quote] You didn't say that they accomplished the same thing, I did. I also clarified what I meant in that if all you need to do is reduce the sound in your ears, then yes, some people will consider £150 too much. The last line of your post I have quoted confirms we're on the same page in this regard. I was just answering the question you directly asked on behalf of many people who use universal fit earplugs and are happy with what they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brensabre79 Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Well.... OK then. I just wanted to stress that the molded plugs are the preferred option because they fit properly and form a proper seal all the way around. The generic style with 3 or 4 flares that are supposed to form into the shape of your ear canal are incredibly thin, its only the bit in the middle that does any attenuating and its down to the size and shape of your ear canal (which you can't change) as to how effective the generic ones are . Generic ones are also just as prone to breaking the seal as the bespoke kind, if not more so due to movement, irregular ear canal shape or damage to the silicone itself (it does get weaker with time). Also, because many of the generic ones don't give an even frequency attenuation, (especially the foam ones) people have a tendency to not put them in all the way, or turn them around until they can hear well. The result is you can hear better, but the reason for that is you're not protecting your ears properly! So I see the generic ones, including the Noizezz, as a stop gap, or temporary solution. Since we're mostly all musicians for life I think £150 is a reasonable price to pay for having our ears serviceable as long as we are musicians! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 you cam spend a £1000 on ear plugs, but if you forget to put them in, like i did at the last gig they won't do any good at all Incidental I use ER20 and have found them to work very well, when I put them in that is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike257 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I've got a set of ER20 and they are a lifesaver, especially when I'm doing sound and there's a DJ blaring metal through the club system while I'm setting up/down on stage! Definitely want to invest in moulds though. Drummer I work with has a set of moulded ones, you can swap out 15 or 25 db filters or IEMs - he ordered online and they made an appointment for him to get moulds at the audiology dept in our local hospital, do that might be another option for anyone struggling to find a local ear-plugging establishment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottomfeed Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) [quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1344612619' post='1767177'] Well.... OK then. I just wanted to stress that the molded plugs are the preferred option because they fit properly and form a proper seal all the way around. The generic style with 3 or 4 flares that are supposed to form into the shape of your ear canal are incredibly thin, its only the bit in the middle that does any attenuating and its down to the size and shape of your ear canal (which you can't change) as to how effective the generic ones are . Generic ones are also just as prone to breaking the seal as the bespoke kind, if not more so due to movement, irregular ear canal shape or damage to the silicone itself (it does get weaker with time). Also, because many of the generic ones don't give an even frequency attenuation, (especially the foam ones) people have a tendency to not put them in all the way, or turn them around until they can hear well. The result is you can hear better, but the reason for that is you're not protecting your ears properly! So I see the generic ones, including the Noizezz, as a stop gap, or temporary solution. Since we're mostly all musicians for life I think £150 is a reasonable price to pay for having our ears serviceable as long as we are musicians! [/quote] I agree with that ^^ I've had tinnitus for over 20 years now.... Molded ER15 for me.... on my second set of molds, (as you age, your ear canals change shape...) High frequencies are the main cause & prolonged exposure (Ear fatigue can set in after a couple of hours... So 4 hour rehearsals can be worse than a 1 hour gig! [i]....even at a lesser volume![/i]) When I first had my molds done, the specialist said. "The trouble with you musicians is you only show up for this when some damage has already been done...If you'd come sooner, you'd have a good chance of maintaining perfect hearing" It's something that should be taken very seriously... Spending £150 on protecting your ears is far more important than spending £150 on that boutique drive pedal! Edited August 13, 2012 by bottomfeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leroydiamond Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='bottomfeed' timestamp='1344841736' post='1769825'] I agree with that ^^ I've had tinnitus for over 20 years now.... Molded ER15 for me.... on my second set of molds, (as you age, your ear canals change shape...) High frequencies are the main cause & prolonged exposure (Ear fatigue can set in after a couple of hours... So 4 hour rehearsals can be worse than a 1 hour gig! [i]....even at a lesser volume![/i]) When I first had my molds done, the specialist said. "The trouble with you musicians is you only show up for this when some damage has already been done...If you'd come sooner, you'd have a good chance of maintaining perfect hearing" It's something that should be taken very seriously... Spending £150 on protecting your ears is far more important than spending £150 on that boutique drive pedal! [/quote] +1!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumperbob 2002 Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1337162810' post='1656329'] I've had tinnitus for a while now. In fact, I've probably had it far longer than I realise, because I didn't get it from music ... I got it from spending far too much time riding very loud motorbikes (Buells with Vance & Hines or Screaming Eagles pipes, KTMs fitted with Akropovic systems, etc.). It was only getting back into music that led to me realising how much damage I'd done. I now routinely wear ER15s when playing or ER25s at other people's gigs, and that's stopping the damage getting any (much?) worse, but as I understand it I have little chance of getting rid of it. On a side note, I have a full medical every year, including a proper hearing test. My hearing is near perfect, the only issue being a dip in the right ear's sensitivity at one frequency, which was apparently caused by being in the shooting team at school - in those days, ear defenders were for wimps. Allegedly. So tinnitus doesn't necessarily degrade your hearing, it can just irritate the hell out of you instead. [/quote] I too ride loud bikes but its not the pipe that does it- it is wind noise- I always wear earplugs on my bikes. I have had the odd occasion on a gig where afterwards I would have ringing in my ears. Never wear earplugs for a gig, but always try to get the band to play in a controlled manner ( eg For F*%ks sake turn it down!! )- luckily no loud geeetars in the band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Thudmaster May Posted September 8, 2012 Author Share Posted September 8, 2012 As the instigator of this thread, I would just like to say "Thank You" to you all, the 'audiologist' has sorted me out! Still got the 'whistling' but got a great set of ER 'plugs' and also get comments on them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassPimp66 Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 I got one quiet one for 15 years now, I does not bother me. Being a Londoner, there's always another noise annoying me, like my neighbours's TV. I am pretty serious about ear protection. I bring my ER20 to reheasal and when I go see live music. I find I keep my focus longer when I rehearse with protection as I ears do not get tired. So, it somewhat indirectly make me a better musician. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 i have had tinnitus all my life. i was born 90% deaf, which was thankfully mostly correctable, but i have always suffered from poor hearing. tinnitus is not correctable, if you have it, you have to live with it. it will get worse with age, thats just the way it is, it isnt always a condition of not protecting your hearing, but as you get older, you will get tinnitus, and it will get more prominent with age. i have been unlucky enough to get it at a very young age, which could render me practically deaf by the time i am 70. the only thing you can do now is to try your best to protect your hearing from now on. clubs and concerts are really not good for your hearing, and you look and feel like a bit of a pratt going to these places with ear defenders in. best thing to do in those cases is probably try and stay somewhere that isn't as loud as the rest of the place, or go outside for a break every so often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 and as a side note, being bassists, we feel the notes. doesn't matter if we are deaf, you cant feel the high notes of the 6 string guitar. just a little benefit of being a bassist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Thudmaster May Posted November 15, 2012 Author Share Posted November 15, 2012 Just to let you all know, my 'tinitus' was caused by 'having my ears syringed'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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