Pay by the mile...

[Krysbass]

I drive a daily round trip of just under 50 miles to work. My car manages 50+mpg, but if I began to be charged an extra £1.30 per mile, at nearly £300 per week it would no longer be financially viable for me to work. There are no public transport services I could use as an alternative.

Taxing per mile takes no account of each person’s ability to pay or their need to use the road. This is why I believe the government should have the honesty to base more of its tax revenue on the ability of each individual to pay it (ie; income tax) instead of sneaking stealth taxes under the radar.

[Earbrass]

[quote name='pietruszka' timestamp='1337159717' post='1656276']
For starters ALL cars should pay a road tax, regardless of emissions, they still use the roads and cause as much damage as any other similarly sized car.
[/quote]

well, no they don't - the more emissions, the more damage they are causing. The great advantage of fuel tax is that it makes the biggest polluters pay the most.

[Protium]

[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1337169657' post='1656470']
well, no they don't - the more emissions, the more damage they are causing. The great advantage of fuel tax is that it makes the biggest polluters pay the most.
[/quote]

Well apart from the environmental damage of sourcing materials for producing these so-called "eco-cars", but's that a different thread altogether

edit: Also, they cause an equal amount of damage to the roads themselves hence they should at least pay [i]some[/i] tax for the upkeep.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Protium

[FlatEric]

As someone who loves driving (some people don't) this is heading towards
the final straw.
No matter what you will be driving, it will no longer be a case of let's nip off
to such and such place, it will be "get the calc out, let's see if we can afford it"!
A lot of places in the UK survive on tourism - there'll be less of that - attractions,
hotels, pubs etc will draw less revenue and pay less tax!!

On top of all that. . . . . . there will be no need for speed cameras, as mileage would
be (I assume) tracked from GPS, so the minute you speed up to 83.2146879 MPH,
to pass that convoy of trucks that have been in front of you for 5 miles. . . . .
the fine will be printed off and in the post before you have come to journies end!!!!

ARRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!

That's all folks.

[goingdownslow]

[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1337169657' post='1656470']
well, no they don't - the more emissions, the more damage they are causing. The great advantage of fuel tax is that it makes the biggest polluters pay the most.
[/quote]

But they are still using the road that has to be paid for.
The biggest polluters are already paying by having to buy more petrol to polute with.

[thepurpleblob]

You don't understand... such proposals are an excuse to spend millions (billions?) of pounds, build shiny new offices, employ hundreds of people and put the minister's best mate in charge with a 7-figure salary. I'm sure you'll agree that's an all-round success.

Anyway, don't worry. I drive a V8 BMW.... between road tax and fuel taxes I pay for all the roads myself

[icastle]

[quote name='pietruszka' timestamp='1337169257' post='1656458']
Yep, this is why I think all cars should pay a road tax regardless. An electric car is more road damaging than a bicycle, yet neither pay road tax.
[/quote]

Ah.
But you're working on the assumption that road tax pays for road maintainance.

[icastle]

[quote name='Dropzone' timestamp='1337169145' post='1656455']
I suspect this is a lost leader to make us all angry and then they will say "ok we won't do it then" and we will all feel better whilst they sneak something else in whilst we are talking about this.
[/quote]

You're nearly as suspicious as me mate...

[pietruszka]

[quote name='goingdownslow' timestamp='1337170467' post='1656491']


But they are still using the road that has to be paid for.
The biggest polluters are already paying by having to buy more petrol to polute with.
[/quote]
Which is my point, all cars use the roads (who'd have thought!) and so should pay a road tax, surely that's what it's for? The upkeep of the roads.



Dan

[flyfisher]

[quote name='pietruszka' timestamp='1337159717' post='1656276']
There are a couple of gripes I have with this. For starters ALL cars should pay a road tax, regardless of emissions, they still use the roads and cause as much damage as any other similarly sized car.
[/quote]

But that's completely incorrect isn't it? Damage to roads is dependent on how many miles you drive (and possibly the size of car). Emissions are also more highly linked to how many miles you drive rather than engine size. For example, a mum using a big 4x4 to take the kids to school (might as well use a stereotype ) and doing 3000 miles a year in the process will be doing far less harm damage to the roads and environment than her saleman hubby doing 80,000 miles a year bombing up and down motorways in his rep-mobile.

Talk of black boxes in cars is pure nonsense, pedalled by the IT companies who will profit from such a ridiculously complex and bureaucratic scheme.

Talk of variable road-pricing depending on congestion is also nonsense. The roads are packed at rush-hour for a reason and the reason won't change just because someone makes the journey more expensive. Don't you think people would already travel outside of the rush-hour if they possibly could? Same with trains, where people could save a small fortune by paying off-peak ticket prices, but they can't do that because they have to be at their desks before 9am so are an easy target for train company rip-offs. It will be exactly the same with road pricing.

It's about time people just said NO to this sort of thing and claimed back their civil liberty to be able to travel around the country unhindered by privacy-invading bureacracy. This should be our RIGHT and it should be government's job to make it EASIER for people, not harder. We need fewer laws and fewer restrictions over our lives, not more.

Who was it who said something along the lines of measuring a free society by the thickness of its statute book?

[icastle]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1337170870' post='1656512']
It's about time people just said NO to this sort of thing and claimed back their civil liberty to be able to travel around the country unhindered by privacy-invading bureacracy. This should be our RIGHT and it should be government's job to make it EASIER for people, not harder. We need fewer laws and fewer restrictions over our lives, not more.
[/quote]

+1

The problem being that you can't actually get rid of a political party and put an alternative one in place.
As soon as one side sees a money making/control gaining idea, it'll want a slice of the action when it gets to play, regardless of what 'promises' it makes to get into power.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Protium' timestamp='1337169477' post='1656464']
I was thinking about this today as my renewal reminder fell through the door. £250 for 12 months, and that cost is set on the cars CO2 emissions regardless of how many miles I cover

[u]For private vehicles[/u] an odometer readout should be taken at the cars MOT and the road tax calculated from miles driven and emissions. Fair system for everyone
[/quote]

No, no, no!!! More useless and expensive bureacracy. Road tax should be SCRAPPED!!!

I'm not stupid enough to think that car-based tax will be abolished but why have a tax that is so complex and costly to administer when the simple answer is just to put all vehicle tax onto fuel? The collection mechanism is simple and already exists, the more fuel you use the more miles you would travel the more road you would wear out and the more tax you would pay. Plus, it's completely impossible to evade.

[ezbass]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1337171136' post='1656523']
It'll never happen.
[/quote]This, just way too complicated and expensive to implement. They'll just reassess road tax levies for lower/zero emission cars and make them pay more. Simple, quick and easy.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Johngh' timestamp='1337168035' post='1656436']
...I have a very small but nice house in a sunnier climate. If they bring this in, I'm off. And yes, I am serious.
[/quote]

Scunthorpe..?

[discreet]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1337170870' post='1656512']
It's about time people just said NO to this sort of thing and claimed back their civil liberty to be able to travel around the country unhindered by privacy-invading bureacracy. This should be our RIGHT and it should be government's job to make it EASIER for people, not harder. We need fewer laws and fewer restrictions over our lives, not more.
[/quote]

Plus... ooh, about a billion. People need actual mobility as well as social mobility. IMHO.

[discreet]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1337172445' post='1656560']
Scunthorpe..?
[/quote]

Didn't think you were allowed to say 'Scunthorpe'. What about Peebles?

[lettsguitars]

"move around if you can't find work in your own town" weller/talbot. The tories and the death of local industry in the 80's is to blame. They should be footing the bill not us. . . AGAIN!

Edited May 16, 2012 by lettsguitars

[pietruszka]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1337170870' post='1656512']
But that's completely incorrect isn't it? Damage to roads is dependent on how many miles you drive (and possibly the size of car). Emissions are also more highly linked to how many miles you drive rather than engine size. For example, a mum using a big 4x4 to take the kids to school (might as well use a stereotype ) and doing 3000 miles a year in the process will be doing far less harm damage to the roads and environment than her saleman hubby doing 80,000 miles a year bombing up and down motorways in his rep-mobile.
[/quote]
I don't think it is incorrect, and you've backed up my point. If someone has a car which is road tax free, they are still using the roads, in fact, they could use the roads more than me and I'll be paying road tax and they won't. Which is why I feel that all cars should have some level of road tax on them. They use the roads no matter how many miles they do. They shouldn't be void because they have lower emissions.
As someone said previously, perhaps a revision of the system whereby we band the miles we cover like the vehicle tax bands. For example, drive 2,000 miles a year pay £30 road tax, drive 20,000 miles a year pay £250. It makes sense in the world of car insurance. Just a thought.





Dan

[essexbasscat]

Worries about reduced road tax from fuel efficient cars ? then apply road tax to fuel efficient cars. It's not hard, it's straighforward and honest. It's also the way to go to garner any public support for further tax proposals.

[WalMan]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1337160217' post='1656285']
There's a big civil liberties issue here - a black box in every car (ostensibly for pay-by-mile monitoring) would provide an excellent opportunity for the government to keep tabs on the whereabouts and activities of every car user in the country, thus further eroding any existing shred of personal privacy we still have left.

And before anyone says 'if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear,' don't bother - that's lazy thinking.
[/quote]All our company cars have a black box in, but all they record is mileage covered so that those who think "it's a company car I don't need to worry about servicing" get a reminder when mileage is close to recommended. As I understand how it works the system briefly switches on & off to record current mileage every so often but no positioning is stored unless we pay for it to be switched on as a tracker if the car has been stolen - which we have had to do a few times sadly. So AFAIK it is possible to just store mileage & nowt else. Mind you that's what they tell us, wht do I know. The boxes do have [i]issues[/i] with some, particularly German, hi powered vehicles computers.

[lettsguitars]

[quote name='pietruszka' timestamp='1337173409' post='1656597']
I don't think it is incorrect, and you've backed up my point. If someone has a car which is road tax free, they are still using the roads, in fact, they could use the roads more than me and I'll be paying road tax and they won't. Which is why I feel that all cars should have some level of road tax on them. They use the roads no matter how many miles they do. They shouldn't be void because they have lower emissions.
As someone said previously, perhaps a revision of the system whereby we band the miles we cover like the vehicle tax bands. For example, drive 2,000 miles a year pay £30 road tax, drive 20,000 miles a year pay £250. It makes sense in the world of car insurance. Just a thought.



Dan
[/quote]Surely the real fact is that we should all be driving electric cars by now. And the bods should be making life hard for petrol users.

Edited May 16, 2012 by lettsguitars

[pietruszka]

[quote name='lettsguitars' timestamp='1337173590' post='1656602']
Surely the real fact is that we should all be driving electric cars by now. And the bods should be making life hard for petrol users.
[/quote]
Yeah I suppose we should, and it's a pretty decent idea. However the reality to this is the cost, again, I drive a small, 10 year old, 1ltr used car because it's all I can afford. Not everyone has the money to be able to buy one sadly.




Dan

[muttley]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1337171275' post='1656528']
Road tax should be SCRAPPED!!!
[/quote]

It was already - in the 1930s .

Introducing more taxes on low emissions vehicles won't really help. The reality is that motorised transport costs the nation £57.7 billion pa but raises only £48.1 billion in taxes. Of that £48.1 billion, a mere £5.4 billion is earned from Vehicle Excise Duty (car tax). To cover the shortfall would mean that VED revenues would have to nearly triple. I can't see that happening myself.

Since motoring costs overall are higher than the revenue generated, it follows that lowering car use will help redress the balance. That's the real reasoning behind road pricing. Higher VED just means that once a year the motorist is hit with a higher bill; we'll still pay it but it won't change behaviour.

[chris_b]

[quote name='lettsguitars' timestamp='1337173590' post='1656602']
....Surely the real fact is that we should all be driving electric cars by now. And the bods should be making life hard for petrol users....
[/quote]

Then the Government should be leaning on the Manufacturers and oil industry to design and provide electric cars at a price which would enable us to buy these cars. It is unreasonable to penalise us because we drive too many petrol miles if there is no reasonable alternative.

I'd buy an electric car if they were cheap, reliable and economical enough for me to afford. Don't penalise me if I can't afford what's currently on the market.

[skankdelvar]

Whether because of rising fuel costs, insurance premiums or government intervention, face it, we're all going to be driving a lot less in the future.

And the fact is, crowded roads, long commutes and egregiously large vehicles do not make for a pleasant or efficient driving experience. Most vehicles spend the majority of their lives parked up somewhere and a transfer of costs from the static impost to the metered-mobile can only benefit those who use their vehicles on an occasional basis.

For those dependent upon cars for commuting or employment, motoring costs must be seen as a component of the cost of working, just like wearing a suit or buying workboots or paying PLI.

It's not that I'm unsympathetic to anyone's plight. But we've conflated an action - driving a car - with the idea of freedom. True, perhaps in the 1950's but not now. Motoring is a drag.

A partial solution for those living in rural environments may be found in 'car clubs' - shared car ownership where one books a vehicle for the day upon which it is required. See here: [url="http://www.hn-lc.org.uk/what-were-doing/hooky-car-club"]http://www.hn-lc.org.../hooky-car-club[/url]

By contrast, if one lives in suburbia, there are buses and trains. Marvellous things - not as cheap per mile a s a private car, but then one doesn't have to front up thousands in the first place.

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Edited May 16, 2012 by skankdelvar