Why do so many bass effects sound sooooo bad? (and by 'bad' I don't mean good)

[chrismuzz]

Just realised there isn't a single pedal on my board without a Gain knob on it

[topo morto]

Drive effects sound can bad with bass because a single, hard clipping gain stage causes a buzzy sound on bass frequencies, and the perception of loss of low end.
Modulation effects can sound bad as the phasing can cause loss of low end.
Reverb and delay can sound bad on low frequencies as the mix can end up sounding muddy.
Synth and other pitch tracking effects can sound bad as low frequencies and percussive playing techniques are harder to track.
Compression effects can sound bad on bass as.... well this guy says it better than me: [url="http://www.ovnilab.com/reviews/guitar.shtml"]http://www.ovnilab.com/reviews/guitar.shtml[/url]

Of course there are solutions to these problems... but the bass sounds so cool on its own that there are challenges to making and using effects in a way that enhances rather that trashes!

[topo morto]

[quote name='Mikey R' timestamp='1337201888' post='1657180']
Alot of people dont realise fuzz / distortion / OD boxes were originally designed to push valve amps further into distortion - driving my VT Bass pedal with a Rat gives a growl like a huge distorted monster, but if I switch out the VT then the Rat by itsself gives a thin, weedy kind of sound.

Its a cascaded gain stage kinda thing.
[/quote]

Very true, though a lot of modern pedals (like the VT) are designed to produce the sound of an overdriven amp by themselves. Some even do it quite well. But definitely worth being aware of which type you're holding!

[xgsjx]

[quote name='topo morto' timestamp='1337437923' post='1660005']
Drive effects sound can bad with bass because a single, hard clipping gain stage causes a buzzy sound on bass frequencies, and the perception of loss of low end.
Modulation effects can sound bad as the phasing can cause loss of low end.
Reverb and delay can sound bad on low frequencies as the mix can end up sounding muddy.
Synth and other pitch tracking effects can sound bad as low frequencies and percussive playing techniques are harder to track.
Compression effects can sound bad on bass as.... well this guy says it better than me: [url="http://www.ovnilab.com/reviews/guitar.shtml"]http://www.ovnilab.c...ws/guitar.shtml[/url]

Of course there are solutions to these problems... but the bass sounds so cool on its own that there are challenges to making and using effects in a way that enhances rather that trashes!
[/quote]

You need to use better pedals.

Drive can sound bad on bass in a full band situation if you're fighting with other instruments for space. So having some blend & setting the band's EQs gets rid of those problems.
I find the modulation effects I use seem to thicken the bottom end (those being a Boss Chorus & a Moog Bass Murf).
I haven't got any reverb or delay effects just now, but a few folk on here seem to use them to good effect (as do a few well know bassists).
Pitch tracking effects usually have no more or less trouble tracking bass than they do a guitar (I play guitar too). Octaver sounds immense at lower frequencies, you need a better amp & cab too!
I don't use a compressor either.

It really is subject to the type of music you're playing though. Some stuff suits a clean bass, some suit a good use of effects.

[Prime_BASS]

As Shep has said.

Horses for courses. I havent found a sinmgle OD pedal I like of bass at all, and the best distortion IMO is a boss MT-2 a pedal thats for guitar..........

I love effects but I can't find room enough for my 'normal' band setting, at home and with my drummer is where the effects come to play, and even still I have a very stripped back approach.

I hate the way chorus sounds on bass, and flange, but others here will swear by those sounds...... I also really don't like the sound octavers have, and only usea digitech whammy for octave ups and the odd bit of pitch down....

[Mikey R]

[quote name='topo morto' timestamp='1337438137' post='1660012']
Very true, though a lot of modern pedals (like the VT) are designed to produce the sound of an overdriven amp by themselves. Some even do it quite well. But definitely worth being aware of which type you're holding!
[/quote]

Indeed - the VT emulates an amp and the Rat is a classic OD / Distortion. The Rat is mediocre by itsself on the bass, but when put through something emulating a valve power amp then its a different game. I would love to try the Rat with an actual Ampeg, but you cant really crank the output stage in every situation, whereas with the emulation you can push it as hard as you like.

The problem is that we are using pedals originally designed for guitar, and therefore a dirty amp, but since we're putting them through a super clean solid state power stage theyre not really in the situation they were designed for. Ive tried preamp tubes and found they just dont cut it.

So the solution is to get something like a Tech21 pedal and add just enough dirt to your clean sound, last in the chain, and suddenly alot of the pedals that sounded a bit rubbish now sound awesome!

[topo morto]

[quote name='Mikey R' timestamp='1337441868' post='1660097']
So the solution is to get something like a Tech21 pedal and add just enough dirt to your clean sound, last in the chain, and suddenly alot of the pedals that sounded a bit rubbish now sound awesome!
[/quote]

Agreed... a proper distortion pedal into the VT Bass is a good recipe!


[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1337441676' post='1660086']
I havent found a sinmgle OD pedal I like of bass at all, and the best distortion IMO is a boss MT-2 a pedal thats for guitar..........
[/quote]

Interesting. Many of my faves have a bass oriented design - e.g. the B3k has a blend and an EQ curve that focuses the actual distortion away from the low end; the SubLime does split-band processing; the OKKO Basstard I was trying to flog you has two cascaded gain stages and a blend, and a tone control set up for bass...

I haven't tried the MT-2, but I do like the DOD american metal - has a lot of post gain bass-boost (which is another way to bassify a pedal!)

[Prime_BASS]

[quote name='topo morto' timestamp='1337442936' post='1660118']
Interesting. Many of my faves have a bass oriented design - e.g. the B3k has a blend and an EQ curve that focuses the actual distortion away from the low end; the SubLime does split-band processing; the OKKO Basstard I was trying to flog you has two cascaded gain stages and a blend, and a tone control set up for bass...

I haven't tried the MT-2, but I do like the DOD american metal - has a lot of post gain bass-boost (which is another way to bassify a pedal!)
[/quote]

The Okko is one I still want to own but funds just have to go to sorting out an actual board for this crap and since I have a distortion that suitable and I like no point changing, unles syou are after some amp bags............ It's the only distrotion that I've heard on youtube that I've actually thought "wow, I want".

[topo morto]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1337445190' post='1660183']
since I have a distortion that suitable and I like no point changing,
[/quote]

Quite right too... find one that's pretty good and stick with it... most people have to settle for that approach with women after all...

[GarethFlatlands]

I'm fairly regularly buying effects and finding I don't have a use for them on my board, for either guitar or bass. However, that doesn't stop me as I've always loved pedals for some reason. It's why I like scouring the effects for sale section on here, getting a bargain, playing around with it and moving it on to make space for the next toy. Occasionally one arrives that's a keeper! I think it depends on the kind of music you play. If you don't need effects and your bass/amp sounds good, save your money. As for certain effects sounding awful, I've never liked most filters but it's a matter of personal taste.

My current bass setup is Tuner > BYOC optical compressor > DHA VT1 > Aphex Bass Xciter and the only thing I can see changing is maybe movig the DHA on as I'm mainly playing clean fretless so don't need a drive pedal.

Guitar one (for info) is Volume Pedal > Fredric Effects Harmonic Percolator > Line 6 M5 > MXR Carbon Copy.

Both pretty simple boards for a self confessed effects fan.

Edited May 20, 2012 by GarethFlatlands

[mcnach]

[quote name='basstech' timestamp='1337197172' post='1657090']
There must be a total of 3 bass pedals that sound good to my ears - the rest sound .......well, crap - and yet I keep seeing 'em held in high esteem by some people.....(Big Muff springs to mind).....

Surely if you've got a good basic rig, a preamp, chorus and compressor that's all you need??

Am I missing something or is it just clever marketing by manufacturers?

[/quote]


I don't know... I find that many pedals sound good. Others I don't like... but I'm not sure they sound "bad", it's quite subjective, and I know that some of the pedals I discard as "not likeable" can sound good in the band mix, since I see bands using them live...

As for "all you need is"... well, I don't think we all have the same needs. If you play rock covers exclusively you could probably do without an envelope filter of some sort... but I can't. I must have one *at least*, and I do not use chorus at all (I do have a phaser 'though). I use 2-3 dirt pedals too. But no compressor in my board. Funny, eh?

[mcnach]

[quote name='Gunsfreddy2003' timestamp='1337231771' post='1657389']
Agreed. I found that with the Deep Impact it sounds great at home but in a band setting loses a bit of the bottom end but by using a Boss LS2 I just dial in some dry signal and hey preso great synth sound with plenty of bass.

Not having the problem with input signal it works just as well with my passive jazz as it does with the GB Rumour which has a really hot output.

Back to the OP there are loads of great pedals you just have to find the ones you like and more importantly where you can use them to make the song better or different.
[/quote]


+1 for the LS-2 to mix dry signal in with some effects. I find that sometimes adding a bit of dry signal greatly improves the result.

[GarethFlatlands]

I really don't know why all effects don't come with a blend control.

[krispn]

Like everyone else it depends on what you want your pedal board to do for you. Do you want a funk rig? A metal rig? Do you need 4 or 5 different 'tones' for a covers band? etc etc

I've always got by with a tuner and a drive pedal. My previous rock band required that I had some fuzz for some tunes so I fooled about with some and they worked for the band but not really tones I'd use outside of that. They are currently for sale In saying that I'm not a huge fan of modulation effects but that's more to do with not really seeing the point of them in the stuff I play/style I play

I'm currently playing in a folky/trad covers band and an originals band doing less heavy tunes. I wanted a board that allows me to sound as much 'the same' at various gigs as I can due to amp shares etc but also give me a good solid live sound. For me this means a tone pedal, something with a valve for warmth and some dirt. If I could find all of these qualities in one box that'd be great but I've currently found this to be a good combination!

For the pub band I run:
Valve comp > DI >FOH/amp so the house gets a warmed up, ever so slightly compressed bass signal.

The originals gig it's:
Bass > Tuner> Aguilar DB924 preamp > Loop A valve compressor > Loop B ODB-3 > amp The loop allows me to change between sounds without having to tap dance too much! I basically have the comp on all the time warming things ever so slightly. Currently trying to find an OD which adds just a little hair onto the sound as I don't need a crushing driven tone. The Db924 just adds a nice fullness as I normally bypass the amp eq and run into the power section.

[attachment=108364:IMG_0499.jpg]

Edited May 20, 2012 by krispn

[chrismuzz]

At the moment I'm only doing metal covers, so I am mainly using bass > comp > Sansamp > amp. I use the Marshall pedal to add an extra character to the Sansamp's drive, and the Zoom B3 is just a noise gate, tuner, and a bit of chorus if I ever want to experiment with other effects they're all inside the Zoom!

[Mikey R]

For the driven rock tones, what compressors are you gents using? Ive been eying up the Blackfinger, but want to look at the alternatives too.

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='Mikey R' timestamp='1337536087' post='1661571']
For the driven rock tones, what compressors are you gents using? Ive been eying up the Blackfinger, but want to look at the alternatives too.
[/quote]

Overdrive/fuzz etc compresses the sound a bit, as does using a valve amp. So some don't even need to use a dedicated unit. Personally I love my Aguilar TLC, as I can heavily compress the sound to keep all the different techniques I like at the same level, with the compression itself having a completely unnoticeable effect on my actual tone!

To be honest though, when I had the Behriner DC9, which cost me £15, it was perfect for playing my 4 string in standard tuning, but the drop in low end was noticeable if I went much lower than that

[Oopsdabassist]

[quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1337215192' post='1657367']
Bass effects nearly always sound better in a band context. Especially fuzz!

Truckstop

edit: And it depends on how effective your rig is at reproducing the sound for you. Through earphones, the effects of my ME20 sound weak; playing live with my full rig on 11, they sound immense!
[/quote]

ME20B for me too, default is built in compression, prob use about 4 effects in total, does the job, and no huge pedal board, result!

[xgsjx]

[quote name='Oopsdabassist' timestamp='1337538021' post='1661620']
ME20B for me too, default is built in compression, prob use about 4 effects in total, does the job, and no huge pedal board, result!
[/quote]

A good multi fx unit always comes in handy. If you're new to fx, then it allows you to play about & find out what fx you're gonna use & what you ain't. Then at a later stage, if you want separate pedals, you have a good idea of what you're gonna use & don't end up with a load of light up bricks.

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1337538407' post='1661633']


A good multi fx unit always comes in handy. If you're new to fx, then it allows you to play about & find out what fx you're gonna use & what you ain't. Then at a later stage, if you want separate pedals, you have a good idea of what you're gonna use & don't end up with a load of light up bricks.
[/quote]

Yep, and some of them have really good effects on! Even that god awful Digitech BP80 that I couldn't wait to get rid of actually had some of the best chorus and delay effects is ever heard. If it wasn't such a tone sucker id have held onto it.

[Mikey R]

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1337536478' post='1661582']
Overdrive/fuzz etc compresses the sound a bit, as does using a valve amp. So some don't even need to use a dedicated unit. Personally I love my Aguilar TLC, as I can heavily compress the sound to keep all the different techniques I like at the same level, with the compression itself having a completely unnoticeable effect on my actual tone!
[/quote]

Cheers! The VT is touch sensitive enough that Im thinking about putting a compressor after it, so when Im playing cleaner without digging in I get some of the volume back. Either that or in parallel, to allow some of the clean to get through. I'll have to have a play and see what I like.

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1337536478' post='1661582']
To be honest though, when I had the Behriner DC9, which cost me £15, it was perfect for playing my 4 string in standard tuning, but the drop in low end was noticeable if I went much lower than that
[/quote]

Probably a problem with the input cap, Al Heeley regularly mods his pedals with a much larger cap.

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='Mikey R' timestamp='1337548197' post='1661904']
Cheers! The VT is touch sensitive enough that Im thinking about putting a compressor after it, so when Im playing cleaner without digging in I get some of the volume back. Either that or in parallel, to allow some of the clean to get through. I'll have to have a play and see what I like.
[/quote]

Yeah I tried putting the compressor after my Sansamp and it was really cool how you could get different sounds with different degrees of attack Weirdly enough, with the Aguilar I still achieve a different tone from digging in, as if the sound was uncompressed! I just don't get a massive peak in volume. Don't have a clue how it works but it's really nice! Compressor is back to being first in my chain:D

[Mikey R]

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1337548686' post='1661914']
Yeah I tried putting the compressor after my Sansamp and it was really cool how you could get different sounds with different degrees of attack Weirdly enough, with the Aguilar I still achieve a different tone from digging in, as if the sound was uncompressed! I just don't get a massive peak in volume. Don't have a clue how it works but it's really nice! Compressor is back to being first in my chain:D
[/quote]

Maybe I'll need two, a bit of gentle compression at the start of the chain, with a slow attack to allow the peaks through when I hit the strings, and a bit more of a limiter at the end to bring the level back up. Damn, this is getting complicated!

EDIT: either that or Im over thinking this...

Edited May 20, 2012 by Mikey R

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='Mikey R' timestamp='1337548834' post='1661918']
Maybe I'll need two, a bit of gentle compression at the start of the chain, with a slow attack to allow the peaks through when I hit the strings, and a bit more of a limiter at the end to bring the level back up. Damn, this is getting complicated!

EDIT: either that or Im over thinking this...
[/quote]

Don't worry I've seen some ridiculously complicated setups in my time! If it does everything you need it to,and a little of what you want but don't necessarily need then it's perfect! I've spent years working at getting the simplest, most convenient, but greatest sounding rig I could Passive bass > small(ish) pedalboard > super clean, lightweight amp!



[b][i]Addition from Patherairsoft (apologies for hijacking your post - I wanted to add to this topic without bumping it to the top...)[/i]

[i]As this topic has been covered over and over recently, here is the sticky discussion thread: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/177691-the-old-do-i-really-need-effects-or-whats-the-point-in-effects-argument/"]http://basschat.co.u...fects-argument/[/url][/i]

[i]Please continue discussion there rather than here...[/i][/b]