Stacking 2x10's vertically instead of horizontally?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1337430216' post='1659791']
I can see 3 advantages.
1- The dispersion across the stage/audience is more even in volume & tone (horizontal drivers have a narrower dispersion).
2- A smaller stage footprint.
3- There are drivers higher up that allow you to hear your playing & your sound better than they would on the floor (though some might see that as a disadvantage ).
[/quote]

Additional advantage is the vertical line minimalises dispersion to floor and ceiling, which tend to be flat and reflective, so it stops messy reflections from there.

Dispersion issues become pretty apparent if you have a guitarist that eqs their amp stood in front of a 4x12 so miles off axis, then ruins everyone's ears with treble or starts feeding back horrifically when they move away.

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1337432915' post='1659860']


Additional advantage is the vertical line minimalises dispersion to floor and ceiling, which tend to be flat and reflective, so it stops messy reflections from there.
[/quote]

Interesting, I didn't consider that!

Wouldn't that only be an issue if your rig consisted of a single horizontal 2x10 or 2x12 though?

[Mr. Foxen]

Floors and ceilings mush up sound whatever you use, but you can work with the dispersion limitation thing to minimise it.

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1337434849' post='1659913']
Floors and ceilings mush up sound whatever you use, but you can work with the dispersion limitation thing to minimise it.
[/quote]

And I'm guessing that the taller the stack, the less floor/ceiling reflections? If so that's an AWESOME justification for having an unnecessarily large rig

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1337435576' post='1659933']
And I'm guessing that the taller the stack, the less floor/ceiling reflections? If so that's an AWESOME justification for having an unnecessarily large rig
[/quote]

Taller stack = less sound gets there to reflect. It gives the large rig necessity.

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1337435796' post='1659939']


Taller stack = less sound gets there to reflect. It gives the large rig necessity.
[/quote]

One of the most useful things I've learned from a fellow Basschatter cheers!

Time to start dropping hints to her indoors!

[dannybuoy]

You may be able to hear your rig perfectly, but what about the audience? I think of it like the famous double slit wave experiment:


This is with light, but same applies to sound waves, where bright=loud and dark=quiet. Imagine this diagram looking top down at the stage and crowd with two speakers side-by-side. If you have the drivers side by side, there will be spots in the room where they cancel each other out, and other spots where they combine to make it loud. One audience member might not hear the bass properly, but move a few metres to the side and the sound changes.

If you rotate that in your mind so you are now looking at a side view of the room with the speakers stacked vertically. Now the sound is much more uniform as the peaks and troughs in the combined waves only vary vertically and as long as you don't have a dead spot at typical ear level, all should sound good.

Of course it's much more complicated than this because you have many different frequencies at the same time, plus not everybody is standing at the same distance from the stage. Also the wavelengths of sound are much longer than sound - not entirely sure how that would affect it but I guess it would mean the dead spots would be much further apart. It's been a long time since I did any physics at school!

[chrismuzz]

Maybe to prevent ANY dead spots we should all start using 3000w rigs with one 10" speaker in a giant box

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1337436404' post='1659964']
You may be able to hear your rig perfectly, but what about the audience? I think of it like the famous double slit wave experiment:


This is with light, but same applies to sound waves, where bright=loud and dark=quiet. Imagine this diagram looking top down at the stage and crowd with two speakers side-by-side. If you have the drivers side by side, there will be spots in the room where they cancel each other out, and other spots where they combine to make it loud. One audience member might not hear the bass properly, but move a few metres to the side and the sound changes.

If you rotate that in your mind so you are now looking at a side view of the room with the speakers stacked vertically. Now the sound is much more uniform as the peaks and troughs in the combined waves only vary vertically and as long as you don't have a dead spot at typical ear level, all should sound good.

Of course it's much more complicated than this because you have many different frequencies at the same time, plus not everybody is standing at the same distance from the stage. Also the wavelengths of sound are much longer than sound - not entirely sure how that would affect it but I guess it would mean the dead spots would be much further apart. It's been a long time since I did any physics at school!
[/quote]

got to bear in mind the size of those slits and their spacing in relation to the wavelength, which for bass is over ten feet for 100hz. So the bass combing thing will only be an issue if you have two rigs either side of the drummer or something. More likely cause of dead spots for bass is reflections cancelling out. Once you get to high frequencies, where the wavelength is small, directional beaming is more of an issue.

[risingson]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1337419638' post='1659561']
I stack my 2 210's horizontally. I have no problem hearing my cabs and at the volume I play at I don't want them any closer to my ears than this.



[/quote]

Wowza, killer rig Chris!

[JTUK]

Needs to be posted in the 'show your rigs' thread, chris

[BigRedX]

I still don't understand why vertical stacking is better. I've read the Barefaced link (which was posted last time I asked this question) loads of times now and I'm still none the wiser plus it also seems to be incomplete.

I thought dannybouy might have got an explanation, but according to Mr.Foxen the horizontal speakers need to be further apart for this to be an issue.

I don't understand why the floor and ceiling should be an issue when the left and right hand walls apparently are not - most of the venues I play at the difference between the height of the venue is not much different to the width.

Finally, it's a long time since I took physics at school but my understanding was that the speakers radiated the sound forward in all directions so whatever bad things are happening to the sound between two speakers horizontally next to each other is still going to happen between two speakers vertically. Why is this not an issue?

[chrismuzz]

Good post! I'd like to see where this goes

[StraightSix]

Here's a description from Bill Fitzmaurice I picked up which may be easier to understand:

Two reasons for vertical stacking. One, you can hear them better. Two, the audience can hear them better. That has to do with two other facts. First, the all important midrange frequencies travel in relatively straight lines. The further the speakers are below your ear level the more difficult it is to hear them. Second, the angles of dispersion are inversely proportional to the width and height of the source. A low wide source has narrow dispersion on the horizontal plane, wide dispersion on the vertical plane, and that's the precise opposite of what's desired. Wide horizontal dispersion, for the benefit of the audience, and narrow vertical dispersion, so as not to waste power scerenading spiders on the ceiling and mites on the floor, is what you want, and you get that from a source that is narrow and high.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1337509578' post='1661010']
I still don't understand why vertical stacking is better. I've read the Barefaced link (which was posted last time I asked this question) loads of times now and I'm still none the wiser plus it also seems to be incomplete.

I thought dannybouy might have got an explanation, but according to Mr.Foxen the horizontal speakers need to be further apart for this to be an issue.

I don't understand why the floor and ceiling should be an issue when the left and right hand walls apparently are not - most of the venues I play at the difference between the height of the venue is not much different to the width.

Finally, it's a long time since I took physics at school but my understanding was that the speakers radiated the sound forward in all directions so whatever bad things are happening to the sound between two speakers horizontally next to each other is still going to happen between two speakers vertically. Why is this not an issue?
[/quote]

The slits experiment isn't actually the one that shows why you should stack, that one shows why you shouldn't split subs/low end sources.

Peoples ears are arranged on a horizontal plane, which is why the ceiling matters more than the walls, and usually the walls are more broken up by stuff on them and people/stuff in between. The cancellation from the bouncing off the ceiling is going to be about the same for everyone, except you up on the stage.

As you go up in frequency/wider in radiating plane, out to the sides the far speaker edge appears, for sound purposes, down to the slow speed, to be going in the opposite direction to the nearest one, and thus cancelling the sound out, result being you can hear higher stuff better in front than off to the side. Guitar 4x12s are probably worst commonly used example, stand in front of one playing and bring your head down to being in front of the speaker and you can hear the difference, and not just because closer is louder. You might like the sound of the reduced highs off axis, but the mic is still going to be on axis, as will some audience members, and will get an extra trebley rendition.

Edit: changed around some terms

Edit 2: Note I use a guitar 4x12 because it is directional, as this means I can be really trebley and go off axis if I want to change the way my bass is feeding back.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Mr. Foxen

[BigRedX]

[quote name='StraightSix' timestamp='1337510423' post='1661045']
Here's a description from Bill Fitzmaurice I picked up which may be easier to understand:

Two reasons for vertical stacking. One, you can hear them better. Two, the audience can hear them better. That has to do with two other facts. First, the all important midrange frequencies travel in relatively straight lines. The further the speakers are below your ear level the more difficult it is to hear them. [b]Second, the angles of dispersion are inversely proportional to the width and height of the source. A low wide source has narrow dispersion on the horizontal plane, wide dispersion on the vertical plane, and that's the precise opposite of what's desired. [/b]Wide horizontal dispersion, for the benefit of the audience, and narrow vertical dispersion, so as not to waste power scerenading spiders on the ceiling and mites on the floor, is what you want, and you get that from a source that is narrow and high.
[/quote]

OK getting the speakers up to ear level isn't a problem for me. I'm not very tall and the top row of speakers in my rig are already just below head height. If I stack the top cab above my amp rack (which I do occasionally) then they are most certainly level with my ears.

The bit in your quote which I've highlighted in bold seems to be the important reason why speakers side by side are bad. Can someone explain the actual physics behind this?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote]
Due to wavelength, drivers of different diameters beam (become unpleasantly directional) at various frequencies. Here's a table of various driver sizes and the frequencies where their pistonic movement causes beaming:
speaker beaming limit
------- -------------
18" 903 Hz
15" 1052 Hz
12" 1335 Hz
10" 1658 Hz
8" 2105 Hz
6" 2672 Hz
5" 3316 Hz
2" 6840 Hz
1" 13680 Hz
[/quote]

Then when you add side by side speakers close enough to couple in the relevant frequency, you add the total width (stops being diameter because not round any more).

Also worth noting that in real life speakers don't act pistonically because of some flex in the cone and such.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Mr. Foxen

[JTUK]

4x10..2 across and 2 up...sorted..!!

[Musicman20]

Despite the fact that a 4x10 in traditional format may not be, in the experts opinions, correct for what we require, we are so used to it.

Most of the 4x10s I've heard have been excellent. As expected, the higher priced models tend to sound a little better, usually,

Stack your cabs however you like. It's your sound, and your personality. Most famous bass players who are renowned for a certain tone tend to just go with 'what sounds right' to their ears.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1337513158' post='1661094']Despite the fact that a 4x10 in traditional format may not be, in the experts opinions, correct for what we require, we are so used to it.[/quote]
'Used to it' but only because salesmen don't want to give a better sound because it might not 'look' right.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1337513158' post='1661094']Most of the 4x10s I've heard have been excellent. As expected, the higher priced models tend to sound a little better, usually,[/quote]
But the point is that it could be better!

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1337513158' post='1661094']Most famous bass players who are renowned for a certain tone tend to just go with 'what sounds right' to their ears.
[/quote]
However, their 'tone', likely judged a good tone based upon on a recorded sound so the speaker displacement has nothing to do with it, would generally have absolutely nothing to do with their live tone... and they don't play down the Dog N Duck where their cab sound is the FOH sound!

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1337513158' post='1661094']
Despite the fact that a 4x10 in traditional format may not be, in the experts opinions, correct for what we require, we are so used to it.

Most of the 4x10s I've heard have been excellent. As expected, the higher priced models tend to sound a little better, usually,

Stack your cabs however you like. It's your sound, and your personality. Most famous bass players who are renowned for a certain tone tend to just go with 'what sounds right' to their ears.
[/quote]

Ultimately this is what it comes down to. I explored the vertical stacking thing a lot last year but decided it's not for me. The science behind it still really interests me though!

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1337513680' post='1661105']
and they don't play down the Dog N Duck where their cab sound is the FOH sound!
[/quote]

This has inspired me to make a very strong point...

So on most 'real' gigs, the bass player's sound will be coming through the FOH, with the cabinet purely being there for monitoring purposes. Generally you want your own sound to be slightly louder than everything else in a monitor... Therefore wouldn't it actually be preferable for the sound from the cabinet to mostly be heard by the bass player? If their speakers are stacked vertically, everyone on stage and off will have the bass much louder, possibly too loud! The only solution to this would be for the bass player to turn down, and not hear themselves as well, resulting in a lesser performance.

This is why I'm now much happier to have a 4x10 behind me. It means I can be as loud as I like without pissing off my bandmates!

(Also,the audience's experience is marginally important I guess )

Edited May 20, 2012 by chrismuzz

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1337512306' post='1661078']
Then when you add side by side speakers close enough to couple in the relevant frequency, you add the total width (stops being diameter because not round any more).

Also worth noting that in real life speakers don't act pistonically because of some flex in the cone and such.
[/quote]

Yes but stacking speakers vertically you still get the "it's not round anymore" phenomenon, just in the vertical plane instead of the horizontal one. And taking that idea one stage further surely having 4 speakers arranged in a square (like a 4x10) cab will start to get the pattern back to being circular?

Edited May 20, 2012 by BigRedX

[JTUK]

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1337514396' post='1661119']
This has inspired me to make a very strong point...

So on most 'real' gigs, the bass player's sound will be coming through the FOH, with the cabinet purely being there for monitoring purposes. Generally you want your own sound to be slightly louder than everything else in a monitor... Therefore wouldn't it actually be preferable for the sound from the cabinet to mostly be heard by the bass player? If their speakers are stacked vertically, everyone on stage and off will have the bass much louder, possibly too loud! The only solution to this would be for the bass player to turn down, and not hear themselves as well, resulting in a lesser performance.

This is why I'm now much happier to have a 4x10 behind me. It means I can be as loud as I like without pissing off my bandmates!

(Also,the audience's experience is marginally important I guess )
[/quote]

If you play with a decent P.A then your bass cab will indeed act as your monitor..which is why some systems were known as bass monitors...but you are going to need very good monitoring and crew so you get your mix and everyone else gets theirs with everything capable of going through the desired mixes. I'll turn down my amp if the monitors could take the load.

[warwickhunt]

In 'the real world' where many of us are playing pubs and clubs (as opposed to concert halls and stadiums) there is always going to be the issue of backline v/+ PA and the effects that one has on the other. If you play in a loud band with an energetic drummer and your backline is also the FOH bass sound then it makes absolute sense that 'if possible' you utilise the alignment of drivers to get the best sound for the audience as well as you/the band. It gets very complicated/messy if you are ignoring the physics by putting the bass through the PA and yet are swamping the stage area with your cab(s) which in turn will have an affect on the FOH bass sound.

...sorry what was the argument/discussion about again?