Stacking 2x10's vertically instead of horizontally?

[chrismuzz]

There's no real 'right answer' it seems! A fascinating topic though

[JTUK]

If horizontal and verical plane was so critical then a 410 would indeed suit the bass player with, in effect his own sound and the vertical plane would be perfect for him to hear and you don't need to stack higher.
If the sound fills the stage well enough, the others get to hear it but not in the way the bass player might need to, so they can just exist on the fact that the bass is there and they hear/feel it just enough..
This is why I think the actual practice is fine in theory but not really relevant in most contexts relevant to my gigs.

I don't think my sounds struggle to get were they need to get.. and I know our mix is pretty good and better than most that I come across.....

If we are getting that picky with a supposed gain here or there, you might want to re-evalue how an array of effects, a poor bass signal, bad amp etc etc etc etc etc affects your overall sound and that most people could or may end up sounding like they are p****ing in the dark here.

Edited May 20, 2012 by JTUK

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1337514591' post='1661124']
[b]Yes but stacking speakers vertically you still get the "it's not round anymore" phenomenon, just in the vertical plane instead of the horizontal one.[/b] And taking that idea one stage further surely having 4 speakers arranged in a square (like a 4x10) cab will start to get the pattern back to being circular?
[/quote]

I'm going to [i]try[/i] and resolve this in slightly different terms. Please be patient.
Your first statement (bold) is correct. But it is the alignment of this plane relative to the walls, stage ceiling in the venue/room that makes the difference, as it alters how much of the sound interacts with which boundary. The nature of the interaction remains the same, but the magnitude differs.
Consider a 2x10. With it in horizontal "mode" both drivers interact equally with the floor, and any interaction between the drivers takes place in the vertical plane. When you move around the stage/room, you should be able to hear the effect as you pass through areas of constructive and destructive interference.
Flip it up vertically, and the lower driver still interacts with the floor, but the upper driver is now that much further away and is freer from the interaction that dogs the lower unit (stick another 2x10 cab vertically on top and it's even better for the two drivers in that cabinet AND they're at/around ear height)
The interactions between the drivers now take place in the horizontal plane. You'd now have to be moving around the room (more) vertically to hear the interference between the drivers. Most of us (unless on a pogo stick) tend to stick to vaguely horizontal motion, so the effects are less immediately obvious.
The 4x10 in its 2x2 (square) arrangement is a lose-lose scenario (you get a broad spread of constructive and destructive interference in both planes), whose only advantage lies in its easy to store/move/transport form factor and the fact that it conforms to what people still expect a cab to look like.

If that isn't proof enough, have a look at PA (the big arrays are a bit different) and floorstanding Hifi loudspeaker/home cinema speaker designs. They all aim for vertical line-source driver line-ups. The only notable exception to this is the "centre" channel in some 5.1 speaker designs. Those lay on their sides to deliberately align their dispersion pattern so it aligns with your TV in the vertical plane whilst restricting its horizontal dispersion to keep it from overlapping into the L and R (front) channels as much...
Hope that helps a bit.
I see there's been more replies since I started this. Hopefully they were more succinct than I!

Edited May 20, 2012 by Lfalex v1.1

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1337514591' post='1661124']
Yes but stacking speakers vertically you still get the "it's not round anymore" phenomenon, just in the vertical plane instead of the horizontal one. And taking that idea one stage further surely having 4 speakers arranged in a square (like a 4x10) cab will start to get the pattern back to being circular?
[/quote]

Cancellation in the vertical range is happier, because you don't move around vertically, and you don't want sound reaching the ceiling, whereas you and audience distribution goes across, so you generally want the better spread that way.

[BigRedX]

OK let me get this straight:

1. Two (or more) speakers will always interact with each other. It's just if they are only stacked vertically you'll only notice if you move up and down.

2. Interactions between the speakers and the boundary of the floor are not ideal, and the further off the ground they are the less this interaction will be.


However:

1. On a lot of stages where my band plays there isn't much room to move around, so while stacking my drivers vertically will be good for the audience (provided that the bass is being supplied mainly from my rig and not the PA), because I tend to have an "energetic" on-stage presence, if I can't move from side to side I will do a lot of up and down movements, so from my PoV I'll still be getting issues with the sound.

2. Again on small stages my rig is likely to very close to one of the side walls so while the speakers further up my rig won't be interacting with the floor they may well be interacting with the wall. (At what distance does the boundary effect become negligible?)


So:

Taking this to it's logical conclusion, the ideal bass rig for purity of sound would be a single driver mounted at head height and placed on stage so that it was at least as far from the side walls as it was from the floor.


How am I doing?

[xgsjx]

If you play on stage through a decent PA with stage monitors & the backline is just for you (like most pro bands), then get whatever you fancy, it's only wallpaper.
The audience or the rest of the band won't hear it.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1337537595' post='1661608'] ...Taking this to it's logical conclusion, the ideal bass rig for purity of sound would be a single driver mounted at head height and placed on stage so that it was at least as far from the side walls as it was from the floor. How am I doing? [/quote]

If it's just for your own monitoring, yes. Though the larger the driver's diameter, the narrower the dispersion.

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1337537595' post='1661608']
OK let me get this straight:

1. Two (or more) speakers will always interact with each other. It's just if they are only stacked vertically you'll only notice if you move up and down.

2. Interactions between the speakers and the boundary of the floor are not ideal, and the further off the ground they are the less this interaction will be.


However:

1. On a lot of stages where my band plays there isn't much room to move around, so while stacking my drivers vertically will be good for the audience (provided that the bass is being supplied mainly from my rig and not the PA), because I tend to have an "energetic" on-stage presence, if I can't move from side to side I will do a lot of up and down movements, so from my PoV I'll still be getting issues with the sound.

2. Again on small stages my rig is likely to very close to one of the side walls so while the speakers further up my rig won't be interacting with the floor they may well be interacting with the wall. (At what distance does the boundary effect become negligible?)


So:

Taking this to it's logical conclusion, the ideal bass rig for purity of sound would be a single driver mounted at head height and placed on stage so that it was at least as far from the side walls as it was from the floor.


How am I doing?
[/quote]

I totally came up with exactly the same conclusion

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1337537929' post='1661617']


If it's just for your own monitoring, yes. Though the larger the driver's diameter, the narrower the dispersion.
[/quote]

3000w head into a 1x1 cab?

[xgsjx]

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1337539062' post='1661652'] 3000w head into a 1x1 cab? [/quote]



If you can find a driver that small that can handle the power & a well designed cab to allow it to produce ample bass, that would be the bizz.

[chrismuzz]

Calling Alex Claber!

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1337537595' post='1661608']


Taking this to it's logical conclusion, the ideal bass rig for purity of sound would be a single driver mounted at head height and placed on stage so that it was at least as far from the side walls as it was from the floor.


[/quote]
[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1337539233' post='1661657']


If you can find a driver that small that can handle the power & a well designed cab to allow it to produce ample bass, that would be the bizz.
[/quote]

Put the two together and you get a (single?) small driver at ear height with enough system efficiency to produce sufficient SPL and designed to deliver good bass response.

...Thinks...





You all need In-Ear-Monitors!

[xgsjx]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' timestamp='1337542213' post='1661713']
Put the two together and you get a (single?) small driver at ear height with enough system efficiency to produce sufficient SPL and designed to deliver good bass response.

...Thinks...





You all need In-Ear-Monitors!
[/quote]

There's only one problem with in ear monitors...

No trouser flapping!


Unless the PA has decent bass bins of course.

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' timestamp='1337542213' post='1661713']



Put the two together and you get a (single?) small driver at ear height with enough system efficiency to produce sufficient SPL and designed to deliver good bass response.

...Thinks...





You all need In-Ear-Monitors!
[/quote]



Thread solved! Everyone pack up your things and go home.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1337537595' post='1661608']
OK let me get this straight:

1. Two (or more) speakers will always interact with each other. It's just if they are only stacked vertically you'll only notice if you move up and down.

2. Interactions between the speakers and the boundary of the floor are not ideal, and the further off the ground they are the less this interaction will be.


However:

1. On a lot of stages where my band plays there isn't much room to move around, so while stacking my drivers vertically will be good for the audience (provided that the bass is being supplied mainly from my rig and not the PA), because I tend to have an "energetic" on-stage presence, if I can't move from side to side I will do a lot of up and down movements, so from my PoV I'll still be getting issues with the sound.

2. Again on small stages my rig is likely to very close to one of the side walls so while the speakers further up my rig won't be interacting with the floor they may well be interacting with the wall. (At what distance does the boundary effect become negligible?)


So:

Taking this to it's logical conclusion, the ideal bass rig for purity of sound would be a single driver mounted at head height and placed on stage so that it was at least as far from the side walls as it was from the floor.


How am I doing?
[/quote]

Bit too simplified, because everything is frequency/wavelength dependent. Being close to the floor/ceiling/corner is good for lows, its less air around the speaker for it to excite/the reflections are in phase which reinforces the bass, as long as its close enough. The problem bit is in the higher frequencies, where the reflection from the boundaries can be out of phase with the source and cancel out. Speakers close enough together couple in the lows and act as one, as they aren't a large portion of a wavelength apart. Its in the higher bits when the distances are far enough that the waves go out of phase that problems start. If your speaker is at floor level, you could be stood in a bit where there is a cancellation from the ceiling reflection that puts a 6db notch in your sound, which you eq back in to make it sound 'right to your ears, but the microphone or DI is not in that area and gets a 6db boost for nothing, messing up your out front sound. Add to that you are pitching from the mids, but your rig also makes bass, so there is a different deal with monitoring vs providing the lows from your rig, and if there are lows from the subs as well as your rig, they can make the comb filtering issues happen. If you ahve PA support and rig for monitor, you want to be where there is maximum mids so you can hear yourself, which is going to be with a speaker facing directly at you, but the smaller the source of the mids, the further off axis you can be before it matters. Additional complication which is the bit that makes all this stuff not that obvious to notice until you understand and look for it is that all your sense and brain interact, so you instinctively compensate for room dynamics and suchlike because you are aware of the walls and such, which is why bootlegs often sound much more rubbish than when you were there.

[Dood]

Looking at Barefaced, the '69er cabinet seems to address those phase problems. I'd assume that with the right sort of crossover, it'd be possible to *improve* the situation with a 4x10's vertical speaker arrangement?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1337546005' post='1661835']
Looking at Barefaced, the '69er cabinet seems to address those phase problems. I'd assume that with the right sort of crossover, it'd be possible to *improve* the situation with a 4x10's vertical speaker arrangement?
[/quote]

That does it by not having mids go to half the speakers down one side, and only having highs go to one. So you get all siz doing bass, three in a row doing mids, and one doing highs. Or something like that.

[Dood]

So yes, in essence, a 4x10 could be split in to two vertical 2x10 cabs. One 'stack' would be filtered.

[Mr. Foxen]

Have to rejig things because with half the speakers doing midrange, they need to be doing it twice as loud as before they were split on axis, but its more consistent as you head off axis, needs a whole redesign to get a flat cab, or eqing to suit.

[chrismuzz]

I've suddenly stopped being able to grasp all of this sciency stuff... I'm off to play Guitar Hero

[Dood]

Ah! Yes of course Mr.F! I'd not taken that in to account, it sounds logical!

[bertbass]

Actually it's quite easy to check the science for yourself, just go for a wander round the venue with a transmitter or extra long lead during a sound check and hear the difference in sound/ tone from stage to audience. You might be surprized, but then again, you may not.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1337547543' post='1661887']
Have to rejig things because with half the speakers doing midrange, they need to be doing it twice as loud as before they were split on axis, but its more consistent as you head off axis, needs a whole redesign to get a flat cab, or eqing to suit.
[/quote]

This raises a related issue which people often seem to overlook in more conventional cabs, the 'ideal' driver for say a 1x10 or 2x10 would have a very different freq profile to that for an 8x10, for a given goal. I personally really don't like the low mid hump that an Ampeg fridge develops because of this and would favour a high sensitivity upper mid-biased driver in that application, that on its own would sound thin.

[quote name='bertbass' timestamp='1337554435' post='1662027']
Actually it's quite easy to check the science for yourself, just go for a wander round the venue with a transmitter or extra long lead during a sound check and hear the difference in sound/ tone from stage to audience.
[/quote]

Or just listen to any guitarist through a 4x12 from the side and then from the front and get slayed by the beam of death! It's so easy to hear on guitar... but if you do sound for other bands you find it quickly becomes an issue for bass guitar as well.

I'm actually a bit suprised this thread is still going, thought it had totally been done to death! It's nice to see a bit more application-specific logic being applied though, rather than just saying 'vertical stack, always!'. I've played [EDIT - and engineered] plenty of gigs where vertical dispersion is more of an issue than horizontal

Edited May 20, 2012 by LawrenceH

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1337558035' post='1662073']
This raises a related issue which people often seem to overlook in more conventional cabs, the 'ideal' driver for say a 1x10 or 2x10 would have a very different freq profile to that for an 8x10, for a given goal. I personally really don't like the low mid hump that an Ampeg fridge develops because of this and would favour a high sensitivity upper mid-biased driver in that application, that on its own would sound thin.
[/quote]

Which SVT driver are you thinking of? They've used loads, but the original CTS and the Eminence B810 that is supposed to cop its tone are the ones that made the mark, with plenty of quitary top. There nasty low mids and nothing else period I have noted somewhere where they used high power handling drivers with no top. I was going to do 2x10s that were a single section of the 8x10, but then I realised I'd just invented the guitar cab.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Mr. Foxen

[xgsjx]

Exactly.

& a cab the size & weight of a fruit machine is just what you need in there!