Maple Quality

[4 Strings]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1337680237' post='1663728']
That grain pattern would have been singled out for criticism if the bass had been reviewed by Stephen Delft in IM in the 70s. You rarely saw anything other than completely straight and close as far a grain patterns go on the neck of any good quality bass made before the late 70s.
[/quote]

Here you go, this was my original question. So things HAVE changed?

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Warwick_Official' timestamp='1337680289' post='1663731']
Warwick necks made in Germany are contructed of multiple laminates, selected by hand, to insure the grain runs like this: \\\|||/// Its done for stability, and as an added bonus looks nice when carved. The Rockbass and Pro Series use a multi-laminate neck made of maple with ekanga veneers...again, for stability and to prevent twisting.
[/quote]

Funny how, with all this effort, their prices compare with Fender necks. Bet you don't get dead spots on Warwicks.

[lettsguitars]

You can only really tell if you look at the end of the heel. Quartersawn has the grain running vertically, flatsawn horizontal, rift sawn at an angle. As for dead spots, there's a number of things that can be to blame. Unevenly glued fretboard, space underneath the frets, contact with truss rod are far more likely than the wood itself being the problem. Although when you hold a piece of timber and do the tap test, it will ring like a bell if you hold it at certain points, much like a string does with harmonics. When you're fretting a note you are also holding the wood itself which at most points will deaden the vibrations (resonance). Holding the neck at the 5th fret for example will allow the wood to vibrate, 4th fret, dead.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1337680620' post='1663741'] Funny how, with all this effort, their prices compare with Fender necks. Bet you don't get dead spots on Warwicks. [/quote]
I'm rapidly coming to the opinion that even though they make cracking basses and for certain sounds are nessesrry but most Fender's are over priced for what they are.
[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1337680620' post='1663741'] Funny how, with all this effort, their prices compare with Fender necks. Bet you don't get dead spots on Warwicks. [/quote] [quote name='lettsguitars' timestamp='1337678536' post='1663695'] Figured maple tends to be less stable and is as a customer of mine put it 'whippy'. Laminated necks are made with opposing grains. When you cut a strip from a piece it tends to move and is impossible to straighten. What you do is flip the opposing pieces over to achieve symmetry in the wood tension if that makes sense, which stops the necks from twisting etc. The idea that you can engineer a certain sound from a natural product (wood) is a contentious issue to say the least. No two pieces of timber are ever exactly the same even when they come from the same board. Laminating stiffens, if you're using flat or rift sawn mahogany for example. and stabilizes wood such as flatsawn maple which has a tendency to move over time. As i said before, the best necks are made from high quality quarter sawn mahogany. When i cut up boards for necks, the quartered stuff gets reserved for special occasions and the rest gets laminated with quartered wenge. I avoid maple as a general rule. I guess quartersawn maple would resonate at higher frequencies but dont ask me to do a blind test because i would fail miserably, as would most, if not all people. [/quote] cheers for the reply! currently examining the two guitars I have with mahogany necks to try see the grain! [quote name='Warwick_Official' timestamp='1337680289' post='1663731'] Warwick necks made in Germany are contructed of multiple laminates, selected by hand, to insure the grain runs like this: \\\|||/// Its done for stability, and as an added bonus looks nice when carved. The Rockbass and Pro Series use a multi-laminate neck made of maple with ekanga veneers...again, for stability and to prevent twisting. [/quote] Ah looking at my streamer's neck I see that now in the maple with the wenge laminates. It's a great neck needs new frets some point but great neck.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Warwick_Official' timestamp='1337680289' post='1663731']
Warwick necks made in Germany are contructed of multiple laminates, selected by hand, to insure the grain runs like this: \\\|||/// Its done for stability, and as an added bonus looks nice when carved. The Rockbass and Pro Series use a multi-laminate neck made of maple with ekanga veneers...again, for stability and to prevent twisting.
[/quote]

Yep that the "official" ( ) line... however the fact is, that as little a single rogue veneer can pull a neck right out of whack if that's what it wants to do.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Ou7shined

[lettsguitars]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1337681645' post='1663762']
I'm rapidly coming to the opinion that even though they make cracking basses and for certain sounds are nessesrry but most Fender's are over priced for what they are.
[/quote]Oh my god! Someone gets it!

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1337681711' post='1663764']
Yep that the "official" ( ) line... however the fact is, that as little a single rogue veneer can pull a neck right out of whack if that's what it wants to do.
[/quote]
mine is ok after 21 years. Mind you I doubt the production methods are the same anymore

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1337682078' post='1663771']
mine is ok after 21 years. Mind you I doubt the production methods are the same anymore
[/quote]

Yeah I'm not saying it's a bad idea and that they will all go like that... what I'm saying is that no matter the wood, the grain or the construction technique, no one is 100% immune from natures will.

[Warwick_Official]

To go one step further, moisture content of the wood is also something very important. If a builder doesn't use wood that is dried slowly and to the correct moisture content, it will never perform as well as wood that has. Most wood used today is purchased with a high moisture content, and is rapidly kiln-dried. The internal structure of the wood suffers both tonally and in its stability. To meet demand, many builders don't give this fact much worth...but in the long run it makes a tremendous difference. Warwick stores all of its wood for 3-5 years minimum, where it reaches a moisture content of 8% - 10% average. Its then put in a special kiln that uses moist air to slowly bring it to an ideal 8%. In the factory, every piece of wood is tested on a specialized machine that determines the moisture content...if it is between 5%-7% it is marked and allowed to naturally rehydrate. If it is 9%-11% it is also marked as such and stored for further drying. Only wood that is at the correct 8% is used for building.

[Warwick_Official]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1337682796' post='1663794']
Yeah I'm not saying it's a bad idea and that they will all go like that... what I'm saying is that no matter the wood, the grain or the construction technique, no one is 100% immune from natures will.
[/quote]

You couldn't be more correct! We take as many steps as possible, but your statement is absolutely right!

Edited May 22, 2012 by Warwick_Official

[lettsguitars]

[quote name='Warwick_Official' timestamp='1337682907' post='1663801']
To go one step further, moisture content of the wood is also something very important. If a builder doesn't use wood that is dried slowly and to the correct moisture content, it will never perform as well as wood that has. Most wood used today is purchased with a high moisture content, and is rapidly kiln-dried. The internal structure of the wood suffers both tonally and in its stability. To meet demand, many builders don't give this fact much worth...but in the long run it makes a tremendous difference. Warwick stores all of its wood for 3-5 years minimum, where it reaches a moisture content of 8% - 10% average. Its then put in a special kiln that uses moist air to slowly bring it to an ideal 8%. In the factory, every piece of wood is tested on a specialized machine that determines the moisture content...if it is between 5%-7% it is marked and allowed to naturally rehydrate. If it is 9%-11% it is also marked as such and stored for further drying. Only wood that is at the correct 8% is used for building.
[/quote]
Correcto. A lot of big names use wood that was cut the day before (exaggeration). All of my timber is air dried.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='lettsguitars' timestamp='1337681037' post='1663751']
When you're fretting a note you are also holding the wood itself which at most points will deaden the vibrations (resonance). Holding the neck at the 5th fret for example will allow the wood to vibrate, 4th fret, dead.
[/quote]

Don't quite get what you mean with this, could you elaborate, please?

Also it happens even if you just press on your finger rather than squeeze from behind in the normal way.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Warwick_Official' timestamp='1337682907' post='1663801']
To go one step further, moisture content of the wood is also something very important. If a builder doesn't use wood that is dried slowly and to the correct moisture content, it will never perform as well as wood that has. Most wood used today is purchased with a high moisture content, and is rapidly kiln-dried. The internal structure of the wood suffers both tonally and in its stability. [b]To meet demand, many builders don't give this fact much worth...but in the long run it makes a tremendous difference.[/b] Warwick stores all of its wood for 3-5 years minimum, where it reaches a moisture content of 8% - 10% average. Its then put in a special kiln that uses moist air to slowly bring it to an ideal 8%. In the factory, every piece of wood is tested on a specialized machine that determines the moisture content...if it is between 5%-7% it is marked and allowed to naturally rehydrate. If it is 9%-11% it is also marked as such and stored for further drying. Only wood that is at the correct 8% is used for building.
[/quote]
Many manufacturers I would say. The smaller builders I know and have seen a little of how they work know how to use wood and look after it before using it. (Like Letts and Ou7shined in this thread)
Large scale manufacturers is different- and Warwick has always bigged up that they know how to use wood.
To give an example I recently went into an unnamed music store and tried a lot of basses. The fenders were awful with a lot of banana necks- one shockingly so. I mentioned this to the staff and they said that they had to go around and tweak the necks every couple of weeks as they were so unstable in the room as it cooled at night. Aparently it got so warm in the last summer the frets started coming out some of 6 string guitars.
Partly I think that the shop should sort it's temperatures out but also.... what's going on with the basses?????

Warwick are the most annoying brand ever. (and I'm a graphic designer so that may be why) The product is great- but the brand positioning, communication and marketing and graphics suck- (though great for you to get involved at this level! ) I just wish they would sort themselves out, it's from a design point of view such an exciting job someone's got there.

[lettsguitars]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1337683379' post='1663818']
Don't quite get what you mean with this, could you elaborate, please?

Also it happens even if you just press on your finger rather than squeeze from behind in the normal way.
[/quote] In the same way harmonics work on a string. You can touch a string at various harmonic points along its length and it will still vibrate and produce a note, whereas if you touch the string outside of the harmonic point the note is dead. The same applies to any material including wood. Certain areas produce harmonics and may result in a counter effect on the string resonance. Hard to explain.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='lettsguitars' timestamp='1337684385' post='1663848']
In the same way harmonics work on a string. You can touch a string at various harmonic points along its length and it will still vibrate and produce a note, whereas if you touch the string outside of the harmonic point the note is dead. The same applies to any material including wood. Certain areas produce harmonics and may result in a counter effect on the string resonance. Hard to explain.
[/quote]

Interesting - not really thought about it like that.

Harmonic points on a string for example are created by the actual physical wave form they make while vibrating... to find these points on a bit of wood you'd expect it to be quite long... like huge.

Have you got links about this?

It reminds me of a story my physics teacher told me about being able to snap a lamp-post with your finger... all you have to do is find the exact frequency that it is vibrating at and at exactly at which point it is flexing around and prod it in the counter direction.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Ou7shined

[JTUK]

This whole thing goes to quality and control. You may be able to use less desirable or throwaway bits and bods and luck out on a good sounding bass but you would need to find that and hear it, to know whether that was true...IMO.

Once you get into custom jobs, you have to worry less...or should do otherwise you have the wrong builder..... about good or very good choices of components and build but then the leap of faith is that you do not know exactly how it will sound until your have strung it up and plugged it in.
It is still the way to go for me though...

[lettsguitars]

You can find the harmonic points in any length of material (even a lamppost ) simply by holding it in different positions and giving it a tap and it adheres to the same mathematical equation as scale length division.

[lettsguitars]

[quote name='lettsguitars' timestamp='1337685516' post='1663885']
You can find the harmonic points in any length of material (even a lamppost ) simply by holding it in different positions and giving it a tap and it adheres to the same mathematical equation as scale length division.
[/quote]and there's bugger all you can do about it obviously. I'm not saying that this is the cause of dead spots, just that there are many contributing factors to this phenomenon. Timber selection is imo the least of your worries.

[Warwick_Official]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1337683577' post='1663823']
Many manufacturers I would say. The smaller builders I know and have seen a little of how they work know how to use wood and look after it before using it. (Like Letts and Ou7shined in this thread)
Large scale manufacturers is different- and Warwick has always bigged up that they know how to use wood.
To give an example I recently went into an unnamed music store and tried a lot of basses. The fenders were awful with a lot of banana necks- one shockingly so. I mentioned this to the staff and they said that they had to go around and tweak the necks every couple of weeks as they were so unstable in the room as it cooled at night. Aparently it got so warm in the last summer the frets started coming out some of 6 string guitars.
Partly I think that the shop should sort it's temperatures out but also.... what's going on with the basses?????

Warwick are the most annoying brand ever. (and I'm a graphic designer so that may be why) The product is great- but the brand positioning, communication and marketing and graphics suck- (though great for you to get involved at this level! ) I just wish they would sort themselves out, it's from a design point of view such an exciting job someone's got there.
[/quote]


Fret sprout is an issue that can occur with changes in temp/humidity...the fingerboard wood shrinks as it dries and the frets poke out. The factory here uses a proprietary technology called IFT, Invisible Fret Technology. Its a highly specialized CNC machine that is capable of creating a fingerboard radius from 9.5" to 47", cuts nut the nut slot, then cuts fret slots without going all the across the fingerboard. It leaves a bit of wood on each side running the entire length of the fingerboard...which adds stability and also prevents fret sprout. It then goes on to lay the frets with laser precision, presses them in, and then does the leveling and crowning, It finishes by drilling holes for side dots....and is really something to see in action! Of course all final work -sanding and rounding the fingerboard edges - is done by hand. This is a relatively new machine, and is now used for all German made Warwick necks.

As far as the rest of your comments, be assured it is something we are working on...thanks!

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Warwick_Official' timestamp='1337686671' post='1663914']
Fret sprout is an issue that can occur with changes in temp/humidity...the fingerboard wood shrinks as it dries and the frets poke out. The factory here uses a proprietary technology called IFT, Invisible Fret Technology. Its a highly specialized CNC machine that is capable of creating a fingerboard radius from 9.5" to 47", cuts nut the nut slot, then cuts fret slots without going all the across the fingerboard. It leaves a bit of wood on each side running the entire length of the fingerboard...which adds stability and also prevents fret sprout. It then goes on to lay the frets with laser precision, presses them in, and then does the leveling and crowning, It finishes by drilling holes for side dots....and is really something to see in action! Of course all final work -sanding and rounding the fingerboard edges - is done by hand. This is a relatively new machine, and is now used for all German made Warwick necks.

As far as the rest of your comments, be assured it is something we are working on...thanks!
[/quote]
tisk ill do it for you then....
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymlIdjqDVDg[/media]

Edited May 22, 2012 by LukeFRC

[lettsguitars]

No human involvement then. Nice! Theres a video of this machine in action on the fodera website.
How does that stop the frets sticking out/sinking in, after a few days in a dry/humid environment? Which is something that happens to the best of us.

[lettsguitars]

Dont you then run the risk of the fingerboard splitting from the pressure of the tang in a perfectly fitting slot in a shrinking board?

[4 Strings]

[quote name='lettsguitars' timestamp='1337683256' post='1663815']
Correcto. A lot of big names use wood that was cut the day before (exaggeration). All of my timber is air dried.
[/quote]

This is my theory on the 'roast' effect on some Musicman necks. A quick dry method being marketed as a super finish.

[4 Strings]

Goodness, that's laborious even mechanised. Watching a similar job done by hand at the Fender factory is way quicker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHdQLaoDOoU

from 2.30 on

[Warwick_Official]

[quote name='lettsguitars' timestamp='1337686977' post='1663923']
No human involvement then. Nice! Theres a video of this machine in action on the fodera website.
How does that stop the frets sticking out/sinking in, after a few days in a dry/humid environment? Which is something that happens to the best of us.
[/quote]

There is quite a lot of highly skilled human involvement throughout every step of the entire process...but this type of machine is used for consistency and quality. After the necks leave the machine they are hand sanded, fingerboard edges are rounded by hand, etc. Something no machine can do. Keep in mind...Warwick is not a small luthier like yourself, and doesn't claim to be. But, what other major builder goes to such lengths to create a consistent product? A lot has changed at Warwick Germany in the last 4 years. Current production is +/- 50 instruments a week, +/- 2500 per year...whereas previously it was closer to 9000 per year. The goal is to provide a higher quality, more consistent end product than ever before. Each person is highly trained and able to focus on their particular task, while maintaining strict quality control along every step. It really is a unique blend of modern technology and hands-craftsmanship. And you are correct...nobody is beyond the powers of nature and the environment she creates. But we will do whatever possible to innovate, and create great instruments for the players who choose them. Thanks!