New PA for band - who should pay?

[thepurpleblob]

The only time I was in that position the whole band payed. To be exact, the guitarist bought it on "buy now, pay in12 months" and all the gig money went into the bank until there was enough to pay it.

We agreed that it was the band's PA. If anybody left then it was tough. If the band folded we would work out some equitable deal. As it happened I left and no sour-grapes as we had made an agreement. Because we bought it on credit it possibly didn't seem so bad as I had never actually dipped into my pocket. Bit risky though.

[jezzaboy]

The pa is necessary for a gigging band. The whole band should chip in for it, regardless if you sing through it or put your bass amp through it or have nothing at all going through it. No pa means no gigs in lots of cases.

Work out a figure before hand for someone leaving the band and get it in writing. I agree that the duo thing makes it a bit more complicated but you should all get together in one place and work it out. Sending texts and e mails isn`t the right way to sort out something that may cause a lot of friction in the band.

Or else, let the duo keep their pa and hire in a pa to do the bands gigs.

Jez

[JTUK]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1337461568' post='1660549']
................ You could argue that the singer should pay for it since you have to pay for your own amp but ultimately you can get a gigging amp for £200, a PA that's suited to the venues you play (especially if you're having to upgrade) and doesn't sound ass could cost a lot more.
[/quote]

well, you can, but my gig gear amounts to around £8k to replace as new... I'm pretty sure the gtr gigs with something like that as well... and the keys wouldn't be that far off. Drums less.
So yes, the vox needs to dig as deep. As it happens the gtr also wanted to buy the P.A and uses it for his duo..and a duo gig with the singer.
But the kit needs to be upto it...a par of cheap average cabs isn't good enough if everyone else invests in their sound.

The very least the singer should come in with is decent cabs from Mackie upwards. If we then need to upgrade bit and pieces then mayeb the band can contribute.
If you are doing 70 gigs a year you must be getting quite a sum to play with .... but whtehr the drummer sees fit to buy something thet Vox needs to even get the gig is a tough one.

As far as the OP goes, I think they (gtr) wants the band to pay for HIS P.A ultimately and if it was to be a band buy, then his duo hires it or uses his own little P.A.

[BottomE]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1337461568' post='1660549']
If the band needs it, the band should pay for it.

[/quote]
[quote name='jezzaboy' timestamp='1337467240' post='1660607']
The pa is necessary for a gigging band. The whole band should chip in for it, regardless if you sing through it or put your bass amp through it or have nothing at all going through it. No pa means no gigs in lots of cases.

Jez
[/quote]

Its funny isn't it that as a bass player i wouldn't get a gig if i didn't have any gear but a singer can get gigs with just a mic? I am not dissing this its an observation that many of you have highlighted in this thread. Why do we cut singers so much slack when we wouldn't for other members of the band? Surely anyone who wants to do something semi-professionally and earn a fair whack from it would want to have their own gear?

Do i need a PA to do my job? No. I spent a lot of money getting a rig that can cope with almost any occasion before needing access to any FOH.

In our situation you could argue that the singers have been lucky not to have invested in any new gear for years. In that time the drummer has upgraded his kit, keyboard player bought a new NORD - i have purchased a new rig, 5 basses and spare everythings.

[markstuk]

I have lots of sympathy for this point of view as I've said.. The singer with only a mic situation seems in my observation to somehow not get involved in the setup and breakdown as well....


[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1337518145' post='1661184']
Its funny isn't it that as a bass player i wouldn't get a gig if i didn't have any gear but a singer can get gigs with just a mic? I am not dissing this its an observation that many of you have highlighted in this thread. Why do we cut singers so much slack when we wouldn't for other members of the band? Surely anyone who wants to do something semi-professionally and earn a fair whack from it would want to have their own gear?

Do i need a PA to do my job? No. I spent a lot of money getting a rig that can cope with almost any occasion before needing access to any FOH.

In our situation you could argue that the singers have been lucky not to have invested in any new gear for years. In that time the drummer has upgraded his kit, keyboard player bought a new NORD - i have purchased a new rig, 5 basses and spare everythings.
[/quote]

[garythebass]

Most important thing so far is Jaqueslemac's last sentence - once you are agreed, WRITE IT DOWN!

I fell foul of this in a band where we were all 'mates' until it came to the dissolution of the band and its assets (PA and lights).

I wanted to sell and split the proceeds, whereas the two that stored the gear wanted to keep it.

Not to go into too much detail, yours truly got shafted!

Also gets complicated if there are line-up changes, where people can end up owning different shares of the gear - again, write it down.

Personally, I would still say that it's fair enough to all chip in for the reasons already given, but if others use the PA outside the band, then that counts as an extra share they have to invest.

I wouldn't really be interested in buying the mics, though, as I see these as being personal equipment in the same way as a bass is to me!

Perhaps try to agree a second-hand value in advance (as you lose much of the value as you walk out of the shop).

[ironside1966]

I see a band that works regally has a small business and needs investment , if all you do is take out you will not be able to compete with other acts who do invest back.

"Do I need a PA to do my job? No. I spent a lot of money getting a rig that can cope with almost any occasion before needing access to any FOH."

You are a share holder in the band so if having a better PA will make you more money, or enable you to carry on earning then you should pay your share. or alternatively you could ask to be but on a wage and relinquish ownership of the band. Arguably you could get away with less gear with a decent PA because get a better sound when the band plays quiet and lets the PA do the work.
Bands are never fair, do you pay extra to the person who looks after the bookings, keep the books up to date or drives the van, Ect?

I think the singer buying the monitors is a good compromise.

[BigRedX]

If the band didn't have a PA and you had to hire one each time you played who would pay the hire fee? Just the singer (and anyone else who relied on the PA to be heard) or the whole band? Remember that without a PA the band doesn't function as a band irrespective of whose instruments do and don't go through the PA.

[BottomE]

[quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1337521739' post='1661264']
I see a band that works regally has a small business and needs investment , if all you do is take out you will not be able to compete with other acts who do invest back.

"Do I need a PA to do my job? No. I spent a lot of money getting a rig that can cope with almost any occasion before needing access to any FOH."

You are a share holder in the band so if having a better PA will make you more money, or enable you to carry on earning then you should pay your share. or alternatively you could ask to be but on a wage and relinquish ownership of the band. Arguably you could get away with less gear with a decent PA because get a better sound when the band plays quiet and lets the PA do the work.
Bands are never fair, do you pay extra to the person who looks after the bookings, keep the books up to date or drives the van, Ect?

I think the singer buying the monitors is a good compromise.
[/quote]
Some good issues. I am indeed a shareholder so i see your point about everyone benefiting from better kit though i don't see why its different for some than it is for others. I guess thats what i am trying to understand. Looking at it like a business you could say that those playing instruments who have bought all their own gear have already provided significant investment - more so than others? I don't know. Isn't that a fair statement?

The person handling the bookings does get an extra cut for their trouble so thats already handled.

As i understand it the new PA will still only be for vox and a bit of keys. It will just be a better slightly more powerful version of what we already have. There is no intention of having to put any bass or drums through it. From that perspective it does feel like buying someone elses new toys.

[thebrig]

I still think it makes sense for the singer (if that's what he does, and doesn't play an instrument), should supply the full PA.

As an example, in my previous band, the vocalist would turn up with his £95 mic in his pocket, after we had spent a couple of hours setting everything up, literally five minutes before our sound check, then once the gig was finished, he was home indoors while the rest of us were busy for the next hour or so, packing up more than £10,000 worth of gear.
Obviously, things like lighting and effects should be split between the whole band, but for me, the PA is the vocalist's tools for the job, because if he did a solo gig, he would have to have his own PA then.
And like I mentioned earlier, in my new band, we took on a new vocalist who went straight out and purchased a full PA, as he thought it was only right, as he will be the main user of it, and because he did not have to lay out anything on rigs and gear, like the rest of us have to.

[ironside1966]

I have to admit that I was looking at this from a full rig. so I can see your point more
The first question to ask is do you all (the band) want or need a new PA or is it just a few.
The next question is are you a band or a number of people who just get together and gig.
your gear is your own you can take with you and carry on earning so you have not invest in the band you have invested in yourself.

[RockfordStone]

i think everyone should pay a share, and get their share bought out if they leave the band

however, the share of the two using it for the duo should be more

[Truckstop]

I think the duo should buy their own little PA, and then the band should buy their own bigger PA.

How large a venue are the duo playing that they need a PA suitable for a full band?

Yeah the singer and the guitarist will end up spending more money, but it's another band innit. Separate from the main band so it's only righ they should own their own gear.

As per everyone else, all spend an equal amount as is possible and then claim it back when the band folds at the current value of the gear.

Truckstop

[thebrig]

If you all chip in for the PA, and then you pay back anyone who leaves, what happens when you audition a replacement,
do you say, nice one mate, you've got the gig, all we need now is £??? towards the band's PA?
Just wondering, as this was suggested in my previous band.

[TimR]

Exactly. As I say. One person owns it. Anyone who benifits from it pays towards hire from it. Period.

If I rented a house for 25 years and then turned around to the landlord and said well I've paid for it now, it's mine I think he would laugh at me.

You may well start off using it as vocals only. Then the vocalist should buy it. Eventually though someone will want to put keys through it, then harmonica, then a bit of kick drum and ohh can I just put a bit of top end for my guitar and I think we could with some subs.....

[dave_bass5]

Maybe the bands I've been playing with recently are different but when we do a function/ wedding etc we have to supply background music, even first dances off iPod or CD. This isn't the singers job, the band have agreed to supply this service and it would sound crap though a bass or guitar amp so the band need the PA, not just the singer.

Just saying.

[daz]

[quote name='MrTaff' timestamp='1337435262' post='1659927']
This almost killed the band I'm with now, singer & guitarist wanted a new PA with each of us paying 25%, what happened in the end was the singer, guitarist & drummer paid a third each and when one of them leaves the other 2 buy him out at market value, I don't sing and don't use the PA so refused to pay which didn't go well but meh.
[/quote]

^^^^^^^ [b]This[/b] is the correct answer for bass player. If they don't use the PA

[tauzero]

I bought a PA a while back and three of the bands I'm in use it. Couldn't be arsed with working out who should pay what. Mind you, it's not exactly expensive - a mixer that I'd already got and a brace of Skytec 15" active speakers that cost me about £200.

[ThomBassmonkey]

I think some people are missing the point.

A PA is a band's tool, not just a vocal amp. You use it for pretty much everything by the sound of it. Is there music before/after you play? Would you put bass through it at bigger gigs so if you have a soundman he has control of levels properly?

I can understand asking the vocalist to pay for monitors if (s)he wants them, but the FOH system (including desk) is band equipment. If you have a suitable PA and no amps, you can play shows, if you have amps and no PA you're boned.

I don't think any single person should pay for it, the two bands (the full lineup and the singer/guitarist's project) should pay for it with gig money. I know arguably that's coming out of your pay so you're paying for it, but without the PA you wouldn't be getting the same gigs (assuming you need the upgrade to play bigger venues) and wouldn't be earning the money anyway.

My band has it's own PA and it was paid for with band money, it lives at the singer's house, he has to move it around (usually with help from the drummer into/out of the car since they live near each other then we all pitch in at the gig) and if the band split, I'd have no problems with him keeping it since he does most of the work with it so I'm not just saying hypothetically what I'd do, it's what my band has done.

Edited May 20, 2012 by ThomBassmonkey

[mushers]

well as a bass player i would tell the keys and vox to pay for it !

But ..
if the gigs are large and monitors are needed then i can see a need for investment by the band im still lost how a singer or keyboard player can arrive ampless (cheap skate sods)

if i were you and the money was comming in i would go Ltd where everyone gets an equal share of the company including all assets like the pa, not the simplist or the fairest as the dam singer and keys player should be bringing more than a mic or keyboard but you get tax relief on the pa and a legal claim as a shareholder

i wish i could sing >.< would love to tip up with a just an sm58

[oggiesnr]

You're either a group and approach this issue (and many others) as a group and sort out a written agreement as like minded professionals or you're a bunch of individuals who happen to play together whilst each looking out for yourselves (and your pockets) and sod the rest.

The answer to who pays will depend on which side of that divide you fall.

Steve

[Monckyman]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1337435812' post='1659940']
Like it or not a band is essentially the singer/front person and some backing musicians. The PA is there to make the singer (and any other instruments that need it) heard. This in turn makes the whole band sound good. Therefore it is in the interests of all of band to have a good PA whether or not your particular instrument benefits directly from it. Otherwise you are a bunch of boring musicians playing boring instrumental and no-one wants to see that.
[/quote]
JUST THIS
I really don`t get the "I play bass and I have an amp so you lot can buy your own f***ing P.A" sh*t.
The P.A is for ALL of you.
What next?
" Well I only sing backing vocals on a 1/3 of the set so I only have to pay £2 a gigh towards the P.A"
f*** me, are you a business or not?
What exactly is the point of turning up with your barefaced f***off cab and your 1200watt TC head when the punters can`t even hear the vocals?
Short sighted selfishness.
Rant over

[dave_bass5]

Im in complete agreement with the last two posts.

Will people be basing how much they have spent on their own gear to get a discount off the cost of the PA. It can easily get out of hand. I really dont get the im all right jack mentality. Try going out without a PA and see if it effects all of you in the band. If it does that shows its the whole bands responsibility, at least as for FOH.

[discreet]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1337553771' post='1662017']
I really don`t get the "I play bass and I have an amp so you lot can buy your own f***ing P.A" sh*t. The PA is for ALL of you.
[/quote]

Yeah... surely you would want the band to sound as good as they can be..? I'm not a team player in most circumstances, but punters perceive a band as an entity - they're not going to say 'ooh, the bass player had great gear, didn't he sound good? Almost made up for the fact that the rest of the band sounded sh*te!'

[Gust0o]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1337553771' post='1662017']

JUST THIS
I really don`t get the "I play bass and I have an amp so you lot can buy your own f***ing P.A" sh*t.
The P.A is for ALL of you.
What next?
" Well I only sing backing vocals on a 1/3 of the set so I only have to pay £2 a gigh towards the P.A"
f*** me, are you a business or not?
What exactly is the point of turning up with your barefaced f***off cab and your 1200watt TC head when the punters can`t even hear the vocals?
Short sighted selfishness.
Rant over
[/quote]

Haha, I'm in the middle here. I'd be happy to pay if it helped my band move on, with the right caveats around size of contribution and ownership.

So, the above works for me - albeit not with those words. I'm having a rare polite moment, you *****

But... I'd not be inclined to contribute to someone else's business. The duo want to use it? Easily accommodated - rent it back from the main band.

It's the most equitable solution, from the position of ownership. I'm sure your guitarist will adore it