I Play Like A Guitarist :-(

[cytania]

Rehearsing like crazy but a real old hand at bass playing has recently let me know that I'm playing on the off-beat 'like a guitarist' which of course I am, but I really do need to get the bass parts nailed.

I know he's right because some rhythm parts have been dragging or plodding in a leaden way. At home I'm working with loops to correct this and get on beat but when I'm with the other chaps I tend to get drawn into guitar-esque parts and slip into the off-beat. Anyone got advice? We have had kick drum problems making it rather hard to hear but that sounds like a poor excuse...

The other niggle is I suspect some of the tunes we are attempting have guitar-esque bass parts in the recorded version. One is T-Rex's 'Get It On', I really enjoyed the break and groovy part on seventh and ninth fret, and yes it seems like an upfront guitar line. I almost feel like there's a second bassline buried in the mix and Bolan just liked the bass tone for the audible part. Does this make any sense?

Another one is the old punk classic 'Teenage Kicks', again I've been following the guitars down D through to B then up to G and A, drop in some passing note and some opens and it sounds glorious. But it's not really a bassline...

Help! You could save our band from terminal groove-drag.

Edited April 19, 2008 by cytania

[obbm]

Position yourself so you can watch the kick drum pedal. It's a lot easier than trying to hear it through the noise of guitars, etc.

I suspect that you are hearing guitar parts and not the bass parts when listening to tracks.

[Kiwi]

this bloke plays like a guitarist too.



and this bloke

[Doc B]

[quote name='obbm' post='180651' date='Apr 19 2008, 06:59 PM']Position yourself so you can watch the kick drum pedal. It's a lot easier than trying to hear it through the noise of guitars, etc.[/quote]

+1 for that and maybe try and mic up the kick drum if possible.

Practising with just a drum machine or with just your drummer may also help.

I've been told a play guitar like a bass player and I play bass like a guitar player by different people - but I started on bass guitar.

[niceguyhomer]

I used to play like a guitarist cos I was a guitarist. Then I started having lessons about 6 months ago and now I play like a bassist. That's the answer if you can find / afford a good bass tutor like mine.

[jakenewmanbass]

Learn to play fat and solid on a really straightforward backbeat groove. (Assuming you have some sort of drum progamming thing, or get a friendly drummer to help)
Bass drum on 1 and 3
Snare on 2 and 4
Aim to marry an open E sting with the bass drum beats. The idea is to hit the closing of the drum envelope so your note develops after its gone
Then play open E for a bar open A up to B, 2 beats each. (thats beats [i]not[/i] bass drums)

When you feel that that is strong add an [i]and[/i] after beat two on the bass drum, making bass drum pattern 1 & 3 snare still on 2 and 4.
Continue varying the bass drum pattern eg with semi quavers prior to each 1, 3 and keep hitting them with your bass notes.
once you have the grasp of producing a solid feel with various patterns, experiment with playing on and off the bass drum, between 2 bass drum beats between bass and snare etc etc

These are the fundamentals of building bass and drum grooves and if you can keep good time and produce a good feel whilst doing them, you are well on the way to shedding your guitarist tendencies.

[b][u]NB[/u][/b] ensure that you stop the notes on the snare drum, but do it without [i]hitting [/i] the strings.

Edited April 20, 2008 by jakesbass

[cytania]

Thanks for the replies so far. I've been doing some soul-searching and can see two points.

1) Alot of my note choices were in upper registers, my old pro mentor was after lots more booming low end, maybe because this punches through more in clubs.

2) I was also playing alot of nice single notes, so I've worked on a straight on pulsing roots-only approach to 'Brown Sugar' (with an under riff sequence that no longer slavishly echoes the guitars).

I still wonder if he was simply expecting more thud and rasp. I'd added a tube preamp before the head to make things sweet to my ears (best tone I'd ever got IMHO, but too polite for a club maybe?), maybe I should have used a bass fuzz pedal ;-)

Edited April 28, 2008 by cytania

[cytania]

Many thanks Jake, yours is a great post. Thank-you for the advice on catching the bass drum envelope, I've never thought about it like that, you've opened my eyes. Will do more drill to simple closed loops, practising 1 and 3, I'll assume that if a backbeat groove came up I'd lapse back into it. Meanwhile I've habits to fight...

[s_u_y_*]

[quote name='cytania' post='180581' date='Apr 19 2008, 05:02 PM']I know he's right because some rhythm parts have been dragging or plodding in a leaden way. At home I'm working with loops to correct this and get on beat but when I'm with the other chaps I tend to get drawn into guitar-esque parts and slip into the off-beat. Anyone got advice? We have had kick drum problems making it rather hard to hear but that sounds like a poor excuse...[/quote]

I've had a similar problem for a while, and I think I've identified the problem. The length between my index and middle finger on my right hand is about 1.3cm. I don't have very large hands, so I believe the difference must be a lot. I don't play often with a pick, but I do notice I'm more consistently on time when recording with a pick than fingers. I really don't wanna have to play with a pick, because I worked really hard on my string crossing with fingers to a good standard and I really don't want to have to go through it again.

Anyways, that's my excuse...

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='cytania' post='181252' date='Apr 20 2008, 07:29 PM']Many thanks Jake, yours is a great post. Thank-you for the advice on catching the bass drum envelope, I've never thought about it like that, you've opened my eyes. Will do more drill to simple closed loops, practising 1 and 3, I'll assume that if a backbeat groove came up I'd lapse back into it. Meanwhile I've habits to fight...[/quote]
You're welcome.

re the envelope, quite a few people have said the same as you about having not thought of it that way, so you're not alone.
Do remember that the envelope closes really quickly so accuracy is required to avoid a flam, but aiming for the back is a mental state as much as anything, and its the place from which as a bass player you have most control. I have said it before, it's much harder to adjust from in front than from behind.

Edited April 20, 2008 by jakesbass

[umph]

playing bass isn't just chugging root notes as long as you hold down a groove it's fine

[cytania]

Great News. Last night's session was like one of those movies where the aeroplane is heading into a mountain. Myself and the drummer are tugging back on the pilot's controls, hitting the button marked 'the one' to restart the engines and whoosh, we turned the thing back up to the blue sky with a roar of jets (bit of snow on the nose cone though).

Intersting thing though is the guitarists were confused, disgruntled even, by the backline taking control. So part of the problem was a group pack-drill thing. Until we started stopping the song, working on the rhythm trouble (sometimes drummer changed pattern, so I had to match back in with it again), I was never going to get 'on the one' with guitars racing ahead. One guitar even left the room for a while such was the shift of control, but when he came back in we got 'Brown Sugar' rocking. We're no Stones but it was a proper band sound.

Keeping my parts dirt simple also worked this way. So I was saying "When my pinky goes to 6th fret it's the riff and it takes two bars. You come in and riff, doesn't matter if it's early or late the groove train goes through that station and on to the verse", "This is what I'll do on the verse it's a different pulse from the intro and chorus.". Sounds overbearing now I write it down but it worked. We not only got through the song but were jamming at the end. Great result for what I had thought of as really crude bass playing.

Seems like part of the bass job is advocate for the drummer and guitar-herder ;-)

Thanks Bass Chat.