To Tube or not to Tube...

[BB3000S]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1338243447' post='1671645']

Or they could be listening to you shouting your mouth off, but I expect most of them aren't.
[/quote]
Indeed.

[AttitudeCastle]

[quote name='daveparker123' timestamp='1338242963' post='1671631']
Do an A/B test with an all valve amp and a hybrid with a valve in the preamp and you'll see the massive difference. Come on guys. I know solid state amps are cheaper, lighter and cost less to mantain but please don't tell me they sound better!

Perhaps some people are trying to convince themselves.
[/quote]

It's entirely subjective, you can't tell people what they think or like.

If for you an SVT 2 pro plus what ever bass and cabs you use is sonic perfection to you, that's all that matters.

If person B/C/D etc prefers a totally different set-up that's fine.

Then the fact that your rig is full of valves and theirs isn't, is an irrelevence.

[umph]

[quote name='BB3000S' timestamp='1338243523' post='1671649']
You are cordially invited over to have a test run on my Aguilar DB-680 + Lab1000 + Bergantino AE410 rig.
Maybe it sucks, but to my ears it blows my all valve Ampeg out of the water easily in terms of creamy goodness.
[/quote]

Don't think oli owns an ampeg, he owns lots of amps with proper iron and non sag based power supplys though.

Pretty sure you're rig will sound awesome though.

The big pentodes sound alot nicer when they distort than the wee 83's in my opinion, they compress in a much nicer way and clip alot more smoothly aswell

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='bassickman' timestamp='1338196553' post='1670540']
There are such things as tube bass amps but are they the only way you will reach quality tone to it's highest level...
[/quote]
There is no such thing as 'quality tone to its highest level'.

There's only the many sounds that people are happy using for the music they are playing.

And if you play with more than one band then that sound can vary.

Edited May 28, 2012 by EssentialTension

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='AttitudeCastle' timestamp='1338244505' post='1671669']
If for you an SVT 2 pro plus what ever bass and cabs you use is sonic perfection to you, that's all that matters.
[/quote]

Reliability and fixability matters, however much you like the sound it makes, doesn't count if it isn't making sound.

[quote name='umph' timestamp='1338244573' post='1671671']
Don't think oli owns an ampeg, he owns lots of amps with proper iron and non sag based power supplys though.
[/quote]

I used to own an ampeg, it would have been the worst amp I ever owned, except I have one that is 100v line out only which ranks it as slightly more useless on a potential basis, although it would have been cheaper to have converted than to have the Ampeg brought up to standard.

Massively annoys me when people pick a boutique example of one thing and a cheaply made nasty POS for the other and think it makes a valid comparison.

[BB3000S]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338244874' post='1671679']


Reliability and fixability matters, however much you like the sound it makes, doesn't count if it isn't making sound.



I used to own an ampeg, it would have been the worst amp I ever owned, except I have one that is 100v line out only which ranks it as slightly more useless on a potential basis, although it would have been cheaper to have converted than to have the Ampeg brought up to standard.

[b]Massively annoys me when people pick a boutique example of one thing and a cheaply made nasty POS for the other and think it makes a valid comparison.[/b]
[/quote]
Are you talking about me in the highligjted section? Did all of BC wake up on the wrong side today?
My Ampeg is a B-15 reissue, not a POS in my mind but there you go...

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='BB3000S' timestamp='1338245141' post='1671687']
Are you talking about me in the highligjted section? Did all of BC wake up on the wrong side today?
My Ampeg is a B-15 reissue, not a POS in my mind but there you go...
[/quote]

That's the thing. How much amp work is that opinion based on? Ever been inside it? Got gutshots from when you did? Opinions don't gain validity without basis.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338245305' post='1671693']
That's the thing. How much amp work is that opinion based on? Ever been inside it? Got gutshots from when you did? Opinions don't gain validity without basis.
[/quote]
He was just talking about how it sounded to his ear. That is a valid basis and whether he's been inside it is irrelevant.

Edited May 28, 2012 by EssentialTension

[AttitudeCastle]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338244874' post='1671679']
Reliability and fixability matters, however much you like the sound it makes, doesn't count if it isn't making sound.
[/quote]

As a working musician that is 100% true, but I'm an advocate of sound above all else.

Though as you say it needs to work for that sound to be there!

My post was in relation to solid state / tube amps in regards to tone

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1338245644' post='1671699']
He was just talking about how it sounded to his ear. That is a valid basis and whether he's been inside it is irrelevant.
[/quote]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338244874' post='1671679']
Reliability and fixability matters, however much you like the sound it makes, doesn't count if it isn't making sound.
[/quote]

[BB3000S]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338245305' post='1671693']


That's the thing. How much amp work is that opinion based on? Ever been inside it? Got gutshots from when you did? Opinions don't gain validity without basis.
[/quote]
Lovely attitude. Having fun?
I'm out of this piece of sh*t discussion, but for the record sure I oversimplified things in my first post. However it is my strong belief, based on 30 years of bass playing and way to much gear to count, that the preamp section is way more important than the power amp section. It's no mystery the Music Man HD amps didn't strike gold.

[Mr. Foxen]

When someone uses one amp for 30 years, that's a good sign they know what a good sounding amp for them is. If they are changing it all the time, either they want a broad range of experience to draw upon, or they just can't get a good tone.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Mr. Foxen

[BB3000S]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338246086' post='1671712']
When someone uses one amp for 30 years, that's a good sign they know what a good sounding amp for them is. If they are changing it all the time, either they want a broad range of experience to draw upon, or they just can't get a good tone.
[/quote]
Could be a sign they are incredibly narrow minded as well.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='BB3000S' timestamp='1338246565' post='1671719']
Could be a sign they are incredibly narrow minded as well.
[/quote]

Not quite following the logic there?

[paul_5]

valves are slower than transistors (their modern, less power-hungry equivalent), so if you want a crystal-clear, hi-fi bass sound then you might need to look elsewhere. the 'warmth' that lots of folks talk about is probably down to small amounts of distortion at key frequencies.

me, I like valves in the pre and SS in the power stage.

[BB3000S]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1338247328' post='1671730']me, I like valves in the pre and SS in the power stage.
[/quote]
Careful mate, that's apparently not an approved opinion.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1338247328' post='1671730']
valves are slower than transistors
[/quote]

Which bit is slower?

I like SS in the rectifier stage.

[paul_5]

the 'slower' bit is the response of the valve when the attack of the bass signal hits it - we're talking milliseconds here. That is a scientific fact.

[Dad3353]

No flame-throwing, please, I just wanted to add that valves do not mean 'grit'. They may, of course (I couldn't get on with a Peavey Valve King, for instance...); our Hiwatt DR203 is a PA amp, and we use it for bass as we want absolute 'clean' musicality at all times. That's just our choice. What else have we..? Hartke 3500 (excellent, very versatile, noisy fan...), Fender Bassman Export 50w (Great for guitar, doesn't like active basses, temperamental...), Peavey SS 130w PA head (not enough power, permanent built-in compressor/limiter) and others I've preferred to forget (FBT..?); as sound engineer, I've seen/heard most others. There are excellent amps in all technologies, each with their advantages and drawbacks (price, reliability, portability... the list is long...). No one amp does all for all, or we would all end up with [i]that [/i]one, I should have thought..?
(...and my Dad's car is bigger than your Dad's car, so there..! )

Edited May 28, 2012 by Dad3353

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1338247690' post='1671738']
That is a scientific fact.
[/quote]

Citation.

[skankdelvar]

Fact is, there are markets for all-SS, hybrid and all-valve. People buy examples of each and are happy with them so, from the point of view of the person who's selling you an amp, they're all good.

Some buy their amps with their eyes, others with their ears. Some don't read the brochure specs, some want to see the entire circuit diagram and some frequency charts. So what?

As any fule kno, tone, grunt, 'power', call it what you will is - in its application - entirely subjective and entirely contextual. The only people who are wrong the ones who insist they're right.

That someone else has a different view does not necessarily constitute an assault on one's own position. This may be a novelty to tyro BC-ers, but that's how we m*****f***ers roll, isn't it?

[color=#ffffff].[/color]

Edited May 29, 2012 by skankdelvar

[Dad3353]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1338247328' post='1671730']valves are slower than transistors...
[/quote]

Valves were (and still are...) used at RF transmitter frequencies, and radar. There is nothing inherently 'slow' about valves, at least in anything like audio frequencies. Cite your sources, please..?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1338252158' post='1671777']
Valves were (and still are...) used at RF transmitter frequencies, and radar. There is nothing inherently 'slow' about valves, at least in anything like audio frequencies. Cite your sources, please..?
[/quote]
[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1338247690' post='1671738']
fact.
[/quote]

[Dad3353]

Good transformers are the key to valve amps, not the valves themselves. Speakers (more especially bass speakers...) are not particularly efficient at high frequencies, either. Unless one has tweeters, the 'fast' transients are lost, anyway. Some of the 'best' (OK, it's subjective, I know...) hi-fi amps are all- valve (often with KT88's, how strange..?).

[Mr. Foxen]

Big transformers for bottom. The higher bit is a bit more interesting, C-cores are used in super duper mic stuff, apparently due to better high end performance, but I don't know if the advantage is too high for audio. Some of my very fancy amps have C-cores though, more exciting than the Partridge ones that are excellent but I have tons of.