The old "do I really NEED effects", or "whats the point in effects" argument...

[pantherairsoft]

Due to almost identical threads being started about 400 times a week ([i]slight over exaggeration...[/i]) and the same people giving the same answers it was suggested (thank you Si) that a sticky was made where the discussions can take place.

I know this thread may become quite long but would urge anyone contributing to read it all to avoid covering the same ground (and you may find your point of view has been voiced and discussed already) over and over.

As a summary, many non-effects users struggle to understand why bass players turn up to gigs with huge pedalboards and loads and loads of sounds at their disposal, when as a bass player they themselves have never 'needed' (or liked) the sound of anything but a good solid bass tone. This is often due to the musical styles played and I think it's fair for a gigging bassist to never 'need' or want to use pedals or effects... but then there are styles of music where different sounds, textures and effects make that genre what it is.

As a bass player who is recording and gigging with an electronica project, I personally do not use a clean tone anywhere during the course of what I do - effects a vital to me and as much an instrument as the bass. With out my army of pedals I would struggle to make music that sits within this genre.

[i]Importantly, as Basschat has a forum dedicated to effects with hundreds of daily users, it is quite clear that effects play a large part of many bass player's set ups.[/i] Here are a few of the recent threads on this topic...

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/168352-fxreally-need-them/"]FX...really need them?[/url]
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/166022-why/"]Why?[/url]
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/177660-i-have-a-good-bass-and-i-have-a-good-amp-why-do-i-need-a-pedal/"]I have a good bass and I have a good amp... Why do I need a pedal?[/url]
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/176638-why-do-so-many-bass-effects-sound-sooooo-bad-and-by-bad-i-dont-mean-good/"]Why do so many bass effects sound soooo bad? (and by 'bad' I don't mean good)[/url]

Please continue the discussion in this thread and not on the threads above. Any new threads on the subject will be closed and linked to here to keep the discussion in one place. If you see a similar discussion start up in another part of the forum, please let me know, or link them to this thread.

Shep.

Discuss..................

[chrismuzz]

Don't be silly Shep, you could OBVIOUSLY do your band without effects

[xgsjx]

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1338326737' post='1672934']
Don't be silly Shep, you could OBVIOUSLY do your band without effects
[/quote]

Or a bass.

[pantherairsoft]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1338327740' post='1672959']
Or a bass.
[/quote]

I could use a synth - but I'm a bass player god dammit and I will not leave the bass alone!!!!

[lxxwj]

I think the [i]main[/i] kind of.. identity battle in this whole argument for is this:
"Couldn't a guitar do the same thing, but better, and with more variety?"

This argument has caused me to constantly decide and redecide if I want
to be a [i]bass[/i] player or a [i]guitar [/i]player. I mean, looking at the typical rock/pop/whatever
arrangement, being a guitar player is [i]much[/i] more interesting.. you get solos, riffs, fills, chords, whatever.

Now, to tie it into the effects debate, it seems like it's a lot easier to use 'em on guitar. Stuff like distortion/overdrive
especially, among other things. This may actually be true. The typical "role" of the bassist is to fill in the low end while the guitar
gets the high end. This already gives us a few disadvantages:
-Lower frequencies are harder to hear, and the bass is generally pretty quiet in the mix
-Bass EQ'd to have lots of low end sounds muddy, and you absolutely have to have mids to cut through
-Bassists must keep that low end no matter what, otherwise it sounds muddy and undefined

So for the most part, it seems to me that overall, the bass is somewhat inferior to the guitar: less strings, muddy chords, less versatility with effects, etc. But what it does have is a good sound; it has a certain growl and a kind of.. [i]dark[/i] thing going on, and it fills in the low end, which [i]someone[/i] has to do. I however think that if effects are used on bass correctly, it can make our role as the bassist a lot more interesting than simply improvising around the chords of the song. The best effects on bass are ones that emphasize that darkness, like maybe a little bit of growling overdrive, or delay if you want to get fancy.

That's the eternal struggle with effects though; you use them too zealously, and you lose your low end and your tone, and you just become a guitarist with less range.

Hope that made sense..

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='lxxwj' timestamp='1338330702' post='1673029']
I think the [i]main[/i] kind of.. identity battle in this whole argument for is this:
[/quote]

Great post!

There's also the bit about bass being less of a glory/attention seeking instrument I quite like only being in the spotlight when I want to be, and just basically hanging back and contributing to AND ENJOYING the music the rest of the time. (Sometimes I do think that we actually listen to the music a lot more than other band members!)

Effects? If you want certain sounds they are pretty much essential, but you can most certainly get away with not using them for 99% of applications. Before I ventured into the realm of pedally goodness I had been in bands ranging from grunge, rock and roll, metal, prog, funk and pop with nothing but my hands, a cheap bass and a decent amp. It was only when I started chasing tones I'd heard other players using and gained inspiration that I decided to explore further...

Actually, thinking about it... That's how I first came across BassChat! I was looking for in depth information about overdrive sounds... the Sansamp in particular! Woah, total nostalgia moment there

[bobbass4k]

The problem essentially comes down to peoples ideas of what a bass [i]should [/i]sound like or what the bassist is [i]supposed [/i]to be playing. Without wishing to offend anyone I think most of the players who question the value of effects are of the pub covers or generic rock ilk, who have a somewhat traditional view of bass as fulfilling a specified role.

But look at a bass. What is it? It's 4 wires streched across a plank of wood with a couple of magnets and some electronics. It's an instrument for making sound, who's to say that one way of playing it is more valid than any other. I use effects because there are sounds I want to make that my bass can't produce. If I can make them with a bass and some pedals, why shouldn't I? Why should I have to not use those sounds or switch to a different instrument? I just don't see the point of not doing something that I [i]can [/i]do because of some arbitrary "traditions".

[cheddatom]

I like to look at it from a production/mix point of view. When you're in the studio, you might use layers of guitars to add or subtract depth and dynamics. Also in the studio your bass would normally be compressed and the level automated (boost for chorus or heavy riff or whatever). I try to replicate my approach in the studio using effects.

So, instead of having to have a 2nd guitarist, I create a "thickening" effect with distortion, some modulation, and some EQ. Instead of hiring a soundman to learn all of our songs, I can use pedals to boost the low end where it's needed in the sounds, and likewise to compress the bass and automate the levels if needed.

On top of all that I love to create weird noises. Some of the music I play is a bit atmospheric, and while a low end drone can be very nice, it gets a bit boring after a while. My whammy and feedback loop help me enter much higher registers. Much like the high C on my 6 string basses, I feel it gives me extra room to play and be melodic in these atmospheric situations.

[51m0n]

Point to note, a 6 string bass with 24 frets has a wider range than a 6 string guitar with 24 frets.....

Guitars have frets and so cant produce a true gliss either....

Harmonics on electric bass sound far better than harmoincs on a guitar....

ELectric basses (sorry ERB) tend to be active and so tend to be able to produce a more even signal for effects...

The list goes on and on!

Edited May 31, 2012 by 51m0n

[LawrenceH]

Good post. Is slap bass an 'effect'?

[quote name='bobbass4k' timestamp='1338346654' post='1673101']
The problem essentially comes down to peoples ideas of what a bass [i]should [/i]sound like or what the bassist is [i]supposed [/i]to be playing. Without wishing to offend anyone I think most of the players who question the value of effects are of the pub covers or generic rock ilk, who have a somewhat traditional view of bass as fulfilling a specified role.
[/quote]

[Prime_BASS]

My problem with this debate is:
I like effects, my favourite bass players use effects quite a bit(Tim C, Takeshi Ueda) and while at hoem and playing I can write a fairly decent set of lines with effects doing a lot of work, with out having to chanmge my usual playing style.

However as soon as more guys turn up (usually guitarists) I feel they are totally unecerssary(being open minded it maybe just the kind of music it is)

Example there is one song where In my head using some chorus of phase effects in the chorus will add a lot of ambience and sound mint! and adding fuzz or drive to the massive ending will really give a massive layered sound and make everything huge. While at home it sounds good, the same lines sound just as good with no effects(is compressor really an effect??????????) so I'm turn at what to go for.

While in the band setting the effected sound just doesn't quite sound right, again this could be the music we are playing, which is fairly straight forward.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1338503134' post='1675700']
My problem with this debate is:
I like effects, my favourite bass players use effects quite a bit(Tim C, Takeshi Ueda) and while at hoem and playing I can write a fairly decent set of lines with effects doing a lot of work, with out having to chanmge my usual playing style.

However as soon as more guys turn up (usually guitarists) I feel they are totally unecerssary(being open minded it maybe just the kind of music it is)

Example there is one song where In my head using some chorus of phase effects in the chorus will add a lot of ambience and sound mint! and adding fuzz or drive to the massive ending will really give a massive layered sound and make everything huge. While at home it sounds good, the same lines sound just as good with no effects(is compressor really an effect??????????) so I'm turn at what to go for.

While in the band setting the effected sound just doesn't quite sound right, again this could be the music we are playing, which is fairly straight forward.
[/quote]

I don't think it's a problem, just valid input to the debate.

If you're using fx in a band setting (as many of us do), you need to make sure that the effects that you are using are going to fit in the songs that you are playing.
If your guitarist or another musician is using chorus, then you might find adding it to bass takes away from the overall effect.
Using effects to good effect requires listening to the whole band as one. Hearing the song as a non musician (a skill that can easily get lost when you learn an instrument) and being able to say to your self "That sounds XXXXX".

As you say, it could be the music you're playing & different types of music are subject to different effects, but I think if you wanted to use effects in there then you could.
It's getting the right sound from each instrument & if the guitarist is coming in with 20 pedals all on at once, then there's gonna be nothing left for you to use.

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1338503134' post='1675700']
My problem with this debate is:
I like effects, my favourite bass players use effects quite a bit(Tim C, Takeshi Ueda) and while at hoem and playing I can write a fairly decent set of lines with effects doing a lot of work, with out having to chanmge my usual playing style.

However as soon as more guys turn up (usually guitarists) I feel they are totally unecerssary(being open minded it maybe just the kind of music it is)

Example there is one song where In my head using some chorus of phase effects in the chorus will add a lot of ambience and sound mint! and adding fuzz or drive to the massive ending will really give a massive layered sound and make everything huge. While at home it sounds good, the same lines sound just as good with no effects(is compressor really an effect??????????) so I'm turn at what to go for.

While in the band setting the effected sound just doesn't quite sound right, again this could be the music we are playing, which is fairly straight forward.
[/quote]

This is mostly bang on. I use my phaser effect on one song, and it's in the verses where it's just bass, drums and vocals. Wouldn't work anywhere else but just there it sounds +++AWESOME+++

[Ghost_Bass]

I have pedals, they sound great in my band's mix, i use them and the rest of the band likes them too! Scr*w that "P-Bass with flats on a SVT+810 tone", my sound, my choice!!!



A word of advise: no pedal sounds great right out of the box, it takes a few weeks of tinkering on rehearsals (setting pedals at home for band use is a mistake, it [b]WONT[/b] sound the same in the mix) until you find that sweet spot. If you can't find it then that pedal is not for you, next!

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1338821000' post='1679649']
A word of advise: no pedal sounds great right out of the box, it takes a few weeks of tinkering on rehearsals (setting pedals at home for band use is a mistake, it [b]WONT[/b] sound the same in the mix) until you find that sweet spot. If you can't find it then that pedal is not for you, next!
[/quote]

Very true.
And the precise reason that I've remained a non-fx-user. Finances simply don't permit me to splash out on [b]unit X[/b] only to find that it doesn't / can't do what I want it to. Then comes the "sell it on, take a big hit" part before I splash out on [b]unit Y[/b].... rinse... repeat!
Bearing in mind that boutique fx can cost a [i]lot[/i] of money, it's understandable that some people shy away from them, especially as there's not some epic "FX emporium" where we can all try them out to our heart's content.
Online videos and soundclips aren't enough to demonstrate how a given fx unit will work with all the variables that a player/technique/bass/amp combination can generate.

Does anyone want to start an "FX emporium"? That'd be ++Awesome++

[xgsjx]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' timestamp='1338834828' post='1679856']
Very true.
And the precise reason that I've remained a non-fx-user. Finances simply don't permit me to splash out on [b]unit X[/b] only to find that it doesn't / can't do what I want it to. Then comes the "sell it on, take a big hit" part before I splash out on [b]unit Y[/b].... rinse... repeat!
Bearing in mind that boutique fx can cost a [i]lot[/i] of money, it's understandable that some people shy away from them, especially as there's not some epic "FX emporium" where we can all try them out to our heart's content.
Online videos and soundclips aren't enough to demonstrate how a given fx unit will work with all the variables that a player/technique/bass/amp combination can generate.

Does anyone want to start an "FX emporium"? That'd be ++Awesome++
[/quote]

One of the reasons I ALWAYS suggest getting a multi FX unit to folk whom are new to effects is to get to know what different effects do & to find out what you're likely to use in a band setting. Saves a fortune on "bling bricks".

Buying 2nd hand is a good thing to do if you're not 100% if the pedal is gonna get used, that way you can sell it on at minimal/no loss.

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1338836435' post='1679883']
One of the reasons I ALWAYS suggest getting a multi FX unit to folk whom are new to effects is to get to know what different effects do & to find out what you're likely to use in a band setting. Saves a fortune on "bling bricks".

Buying 2nd hand is a good thing to do if you're not 100% if the pedal is gonna get used, that way you can sell it on at minimal/no loss.
[/quote]

+1!!! This is the best advice for anybody looking to start on FX.

If you want a pedal but don't have a way to try it or even hear it in action before then is best to keep an eye on the sales forum and be patient, one will always come up for sale.
The only pedals i bought new are the ones that in my sig (appart from the pickle pie) and a zoom multifx that i got early on my fx endeavour. All other pedals i bought second hand through forums and fleabay and passed them on at the buy price, no hit taken

[fatwull]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1338836435' post='1679883']
One of the reasons I ALWAYS suggest getting a multi FX unit to folk whom are new to effects is to get to know what different effects do & to find out what you're likely to use in a band setting. Saves a fortune on "bling bricks".

Buying 2nd hand is a good thing to do if you're not 100% if the pedal is gonna get used, that way you can sell it on at minimal/no loss.
[/quote]

Totally agree, just not long started back playing after 20 years away from bass and i bought a zoom B2 to see what's out there and it's a great thing to be able to sit at home and fiddle with things till you get something you like, you may like the sounds on a mulit fx unit enough to keep it or you might buy a pedal according to what you use most on it.
Also, don't use the headphones with it only, as your amp will sound totally different.

[Sibob]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1338836435' post='1679883']

Buying 2nd hand is a good thing to do if you're not 100% if the pedal is gonna get used, that way you can sell it on at minimal/no loss.
[/quote]

+10000
I always try and look second hand, especially when looking at just trying them out.
I think I've only bought a couple of pedals new, and they tend to be fairly specialist, Fuzzrocious, CoPilot & SFX (wanted to support small pedal builders). My Source Audio as there were no 2nd hand at the time.....thats it really.

Si

[matejj53]

Without wanting to be negative about other players, I feel that many players are negative about using effects on bass. I have quite big pedal board,many times my bands comment on it but I don't spend much on my beers so I have good quality and variety of sounds. I am very careful with it and not overusing it, choosing moments for them ( I hope, or that is what I think). they have comments on that allot but when I do something bandmates say: : " yes that sounds really nice"and 90% of music we play are ideas of mine messing around with effects sound and rifs, so I think bass is getting different roles and it is evolving and so are the effects specially for bass. I feel that just some people do not have respect for bass players many times they are in same roots sounding same as they idols or trying to sound like them forgetting what is to be musician and everyone is. There is loots of music to be created and if you want to have innovative and unique sound, I use effect.

I say bass big yes using effects but be careful in using it ,we are bassists and effects needs to make your music better. you cant use effect all the time just because you have it.

[Ant]

Progress in music is amazing, the only role any instrument plays is the role you choose to give it, don't lock yourself in a box like so many small minded individuals.

BAM

[phil.i.stein]

[quote name='Ant' timestamp='1340630343' post='1707266']
. the only role any instrument plays is the role you choose to give it, ..
[/quote]

well said.

i personally don't mind whether people choose to use fx or not,

but what does 'get my goat', is when they visit the 'Effects' forum to either slag off the use of effects, or question the point of them.

if they want to do that, then 'General Discussion' would probably be the best place to do that (they'll have more
back-up there), rather than trying to preach to the converted.

it would be the equivalent of me going on a religous forum and telling everyone that i don't believe.

jeez !, some people ..

Edited June 25, 2012 by phil.i.stein

[Mog]

IMO it fairly simple. If you are writing a baseline and effect X sounds good to you then use it. If you're playing a cover and decide to throw something on it then go for it.

As long as it adds to the song and doesn't swamp the other instruments then there's no problem.

Its all about personal choice. Telling a bassist which Fx he/she should use is like telling an artist what brushstrokes he/she should use....

[51m0n]

I love it when I hear people site how they use no fx at all because they like the sound of bass, and then turn out to be the kind of people who favour a tube amp driven hard over a solid state amp or a DI.

Chuckles abound at the (oxy)moronic nature of that.....

[thefruitfarmer]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1341839737' post='1724881']
I love it when I hear people site how they use no fx at all because they like the sound of bass, and then turn out to be the kind of people who favour a tube amp driven hard over a solid state amp or a DI.

Chuckles abound at the (oxy)moronic nature of that.....
[/quote]

Well yeah, I have a Carlsboro Reactor 400, solid state workhorse amp, and it really only starts to sound good with a couple of pedals in front of it. I have a Boss CE-5 Chorus and a Boss CS-3 compressor, to add a bit of colour to the sound and to even out all the peaks smoothly. I am thinking of adding a dirt box as well and getting a less brutal compressor. In effect my pedal board is adding the features to my tranny amp that a good valve amp would have anyway.

I like the sound of bass, but you can mould your sound with pedals just as you can with a good valve amp. I am not using any freaky effects on bass, it would not suit the band and I think they usually sound better on guitar anyway. Despite saying that though effects on bass can work in some styles but definately not in others!