ironside1966 Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) I must confess I have done the same with recordings I have done, Singers I have worked with have used musicians and I replaced the part Later on. It is not that the players were bad or doing anything wrong and it is decently not about ego. it's about what is right for the track. If they wanted a recording that sounds like a live bands I would have happily left the part in, but whoever paid me wanted a more produced and polished sound. When a bass player initially track their part they rightly reacts to the what they are hearing, it will properly be a small rhythm section consisting of drums, guitar and a guide vocal. Often has the song builds players tend to react by playing more notes which works well in a small band. Often a better way of creating dynamics and tension is to add more parts, instruments or harmonies. When you start to builds up an arrangement the original bass line may not fit, work or better results can be achieved with something simpler. The more I research producers who I respect I find they all have a deep understanding of music and great arrangement skills. Tony Visconti has said that a major part of his job is sitting down with the musicians and helping them work out arrangements, even when working with talented and creative people Like, Bowie, Eno and Frip and the best musicians available. Don't be disheartened many great players have had their parts removed. If any one wants to make a success out of music then they have take rejection of their Ideas and visions for the music Edited May 30, 2012 by ironside1966 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 [quote name='El Bajo' timestamp='1338389872' post='1673774'] Hi all, some great responses and advice, I feel over welmed, it seems many people have been in similar situations. I'll just clarify that he used to be a bass player, he's actually pretty good in a Duff Mackagan kind of way and his rhythm guitar has a lot of groove to it. The producer did want to use some of my parts but the Guiraist made a judgment call and re-recorded The one thing I am hearing alot of is communication, I do need to sit down with him and find out what he expects of me, or expects from the bass. In the past he's just said in the middle 8 go crazy...so I did but it looks like it hasn't worked out like he wanted. It would be different if from the outset my role was defined I can handle being a session player just fine, if anything it would probably suit my lifestyle (job, family etc..). Can I just say I feel I've cast him in a bad light, as a person he's a great guy...just a bit ruthless when it comes to music and views people as expendable if they don't pull their weight...I just hope he thinks that I haven't. A few of you have mentioned money, he's listed us all as song co-writers (which makes me feel like a fraud). I do expect to be paid for gigs if payment is offered by the venue/promotor. He's also included me in all developments so far and asked for my opinion...which he's never followed (meow). This is is baby (and money) and he's been let down in the past so I understand why he is this way. I'm going to reply and express my dissapointment at not being notified at the time and the need for better communication. Also if he does want me to contribute, and that if we go into the studios again, I want to work and develop parts together so this kind of thing doesen't happen. If not then what kind of expectations does he have of me, am i considered part of the band? Or just a live player. Still gonna feel a bit daft handing out CDs to friends though. [/quote] Well, he sounds like a jolly decent chap. And of course he's going to be a bit ruthless with his songs. Like Skank says, if you email him, it will sound very serious and intense and you may misrepresent how you feel. Call him, you need speech here, preferably in person down the pub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alyctes Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 [quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1338390602' post='1673799'] ... many great players have had their parts removed ...[/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 [quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1338390602' post='1673799'] I must confess .... ....take rejection of their Ideas and visions for the music [/quote] This is exactly what I mean. Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Motown replaced parts all the time, even Jamersons! A lot of us have been "screwed" and ripped off to one degree or another. My experience started with Don Arden. It just seems to come with the territory and the flaky people you can meet in the music business. Thick skin is required as much as talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Bajo Posted May 30, 2012 Author Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) Sent him an email. It started of scathing, that got deleted, then it got re-written in a light hearted manner but with an emphasis on 'next time let me know', and 'in future lets work together more closely on our parts to save time and money'. And I made sure to put in that if its for the greater good of the song then ok, bit dissapointed but ok. I also put in a background object with very very faint grey text saying D*CK in capital letters. Subliminal I'll dive into it further next time I see him, I'm not very good over the phone. If he ever pulls this kind of thing again though I'm gone, and I'm sure to have my guard up from now on. Edited May 30, 2012 by El Bajo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 [quote name='El Bajo' timestamp='1338393082' post='1673847'] Sent him an email. It started of scathing, that got deleted, then it got re-written in a light hearted manner but with an emphasis on 'next time let me know', and 'in future lets work together more closely on our parts to save time and money'. And I made sure to put in that if its for the greater good of the song then ok, bit dissapointed but ok. I also put in a background object with very very faint grey text saying D*CK in capital letters. Subliminal I'll dive into it further next time I see him, I'm not very good over the phone. If he ever pulls this kind of thing again though I'm gone, and I'm sure to have my guard up from now on. [/quote] Don't make things easy for yourself do you. Being a musician is mostly about you as a person, not your playing skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Bajo Posted May 30, 2012 Author Share Posted May 30, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1338393685' post='1673864'] Don't make things easy for yourself do you. Being a musician is mostly about you as a person, not your playing skills. [/quote] I probably should have added...I didnt really do the hidden message thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul torch Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 [quote name='El Bajo' timestamp='1338393082' post='1673847'] I'll dive into it further next time I see him, I'm not very good over the phone. [/quote] not that great in an email either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Bajo Posted May 30, 2012 Author Share Posted May 30, 2012 [quote name='paul torch' timestamp='1338394227' post='1673877'] not that great in an email either. [/quote] What do you mean? You didn't see what I put. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul torch Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1338390408' post='1673791'] Frankly, that's a lot to stick in an email without appearing a bit intense. It also shows your him your hand. Why not mail him, all smiley-like, saying you're glad he's 'happy with the outcome, let's have a beer and sort out where we go next and how I can best fit in with what you want to do'. Just that, no more. Sit him down and have a general matey chat about the things you listed. That way, he's not teed up in advance for trouble and you might get more info out of him than otherwise. Remember, you're a bassist. Silent but deadly is our way. [color=#ffffff].[/color] [/quote] there speaks a wise man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul torch Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 [quote name='El Bajo' timestamp='1338393082' post='1673847'] I also put in a background object with very very faint grey text saying D*CK in capital letters. Subliminal . [/quote] this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Bajo Posted May 30, 2012 Author Share Posted May 30, 2012 [quote name='paul torch' timestamp='1338394416' post='1673888'] there speaks a wise man. [/quote] Exactly, which is what I did but made it more about building upon the band rather than throwing accusations and critques. I also added lols, smileys, dude, mate etc... And I've already posted I was joking about the subliminal message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul torch Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 [quote name='El Bajo' timestamp='1338394691' post='1673897'] Exactly, which is what I did but made it more about building upon the band rather than throwing accusations and critques. I also added lols, smileys, dude, mate etc... And I've already posted I was joking about the subliminal message. [/quote] Sorry, didn't get that you were joking. Thought you had actually included it. Hope I didn't offend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 I think we get the idea mate. If you feel this level of resentment towards the songwriter who needs artistic control, and are no good on the phone, and pay no mind to the advice you've had so far and proceed to fire off an email with demands in it to the artist, then how in gods name are you going to fend off the competition in the session arena? You need interpersonal skills as well as being able to shred on your ERB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Bajo Posted May 30, 2012 Author Share Posted May 30, 2012 Not quite sure where that came from silddx, you've summed all that from my posts! I don't resent the songwriter, I was angry, theres a difference. On the advice that was given I understand more where he's coming from and now I'm not angry. I emailed becasue I AM rubbish on the phone, always have been, I get talked down easily and clam up. and as I said I made sure the email was light hearted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oggiesnr Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Sorry but you raised this at eight this morning and have sent an e-mail by three this afternoon. IMHO that's not enough time to sort out how you really feel about this and to let you temper cool and your brain take over. However what is done is done and I just hope you haven't burnt your chances of doing what (down the road) you realise you should/could have done. Cooling off periods are a great idea and give everyone time to step back before something drastic happens. I wonder how many bands have split because they've had band meetings straight after a crap gig rather than twenty four hours later? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) [quote name='El Bajo' timestamp='1338395412' post='1673923'] Not quite sure where that came from silddx, you've summed all that from my posts! I don't resent the songwriter, I was angry, theres a difference. On the advice that was given I understand more where he's coming from and now I'm not angry. I emailed becasue I AM rubbish on the phone, always have been, I get talked down easily and clam up. and as I said I made sure the email was light hearted. [/quote] I typed it on my BB and missed your other posts saying you didn't really do this, that and the other. Stop being rubbish on the phone. You are not a 12 year old. If you are seriously considering a career in music, you are going to have to deal with comms in all its forms. Someone talks you down on the blower, you clam up and agree to all sorts of sh*t you can't deliver, you will get a crap rep very swiftly. Get some help, and follow it. I suppose I should add that someone saying they're sh*te on the phone, and then complaining about comms from their bandleader makes my shake my head and chuckle a bit Edited May 30, 2012 by silddx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 There's a lot of posts which I haven't read yet BUT you do need to get down to the nitty gritty and find out why he re-recorded your tracks. Because if he doesn't like your playing you may as well find out now rather than when he introduces you to the new bass player the day before the band starts the european tour. Because if it happened to me I'd assume the writing was on the wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkG3 Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1338378458' post='1673482'] But there is creative and CREATIVE right? The guitarist sounds like a great songwriter, and he got signed (although it depends on the nature of the deal) on the strength of these songs. Really good songwriters and performers are hard to find, and they often have a few marbles missing in the comms and diplomacy dept. just put up with it. It's all very well having a lovely time, but after three years of no progress with an average band, you'll be looking elsewhere, unless you're just a hobbyist, but the OP sounds like he has a bit of ambition. [/quote] But then it's all well and good being 'signed' but if the blokes an arse why put up with it? I agree it sounds like he has an ambition, but no-one should be made to feel like that. Yea there will be disagreements but if every one is on the same page who's to say you can't enjoy it and be ambitious? It's not a case of one or the other In my experience Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor J Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 [quote name='El Bajo' timestamp='1338389872' post='1673774'] just a bit ruthless when it comes to music and views people as expendable if they don't pull their weight... [/quote] You know something, the older I get the more I see that as an admirable quality, that every band needs someone like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 [quote name='S9_S12_Bass' timestamp='1338399591' post='1674010'] But then it's all well and good being 'signed' but if the blokes an arse why put up with it? I agree it sounds like he has an ambition, but no-one should be made to feel like that. Yea there will be disagreements but if every one is on the same page who's to say you can't enjoy it and be ambitious? It's not a case of one or the other In my experience [/quote] Why do you think he's an arse? Feel like what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Stu Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1338392665' post='1673837'] A lot of us have been "screwed" and ripped off to one degree or another. My experience started with Don Arden.[/quote] [i]"I-I-I-I can s-s-see our house fr-fr-fr-om up here!............ even if it is upside-down................just don't let go of my ankles eh?" [/i][i] [/i] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Doctor J' timestamp='1338401738' post='1674064'] You know something, the older I get the more I see that as an admirable quality, that every band needs someone like that. [/quote] Absolutely. Half the band woe threads on here are about lazy unmotivated f***ers who can't be bothered to even practice, let alone rehearse. Bands need people with vision, and the determination and uncompromising attitude to make it happen. I know my place in the bands I'm in. And I do what is right for the songs and the bandleader / songwriter. I never abuse that position and sling in the latest fiddly sh*t I learned off the Claypool album a couple of days ago. I used to try to be 'clever', and my sphincter goes when I think about some of the sh*t I would try and sneak into a song in the past. Serve the song, not your ego, you've got Soundcloud if you want to bugger about in public. Edited May 30, 2012 by silddx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Bajo Posted May 30, 2012 Author Share Posted May 30, 2012 [quote name='Doctor J' timestamp='1338401738' post='1674064'] You know something, the older I get the more I see that as an admirable quality, that every band needs someone like that. [/quote] I actually agree with you at least it sets the standard and leads the band in a direction...I just hope he doesn't get rid of me lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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