Small and lightweight: what should I look into?

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='1976fenderhead' timestamp='1339612457' post='1691571']
Could be, but I also tried it elsewhere with a MarkBass 210 standing on top of another one (unplugged) and it didn't sound at all like this, sounded much better... But when I tried it with a MarkBass 112 on the floor it did sound somewhat like this. I guess it just doesn't go well with a single 12" ?
[/quote]

Might be just the particular environment for each test - different speaker voicings, different positioning shifting the cancellation centre frequency around, different absorbing surfaces... or it could just be one of those things, you know? Gotta go with your ears at the end of the day! Acoustic effects can be really hard to pin down. Just a shame you couldn't get what you wanted from the one-cab option.

[1976fenderhead]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1339613077' post='1691581']
Might be just the particular environment for each test - different speaker voicings, different positioning shifting the cancellation centre frequency around, different absorbing surfaces...
[/quote]

I thought that too... floor was laminate and the room seemed to have bad acoustics, I tried the TH and a MarkBass with the SL's, an Aguilar DC210 and an SWR GoLight, it never sounded quite right regardless of cab and I almost couldn't recognise these amps from the other testing I did... Anyway, still sounded awesome with the stack so regardless of room acoustics, I know a stack sounds way better than a single so I won't settle for the single now...

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1339539558' post='1690388']
I totally agree with this about the two TC heads I had. Loved all the features, spent an age getting the presets just how I wanted them & then hated the sound live... what I was hearing on stage was really quite nasty [/quote]

This was broadly my experience.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1339611690' post='1691549']
Hmm, thinking.. on a cab raised substantially off the floor you will unavoidably get some cancellation that'd typically affect the low mids - could it be that? Since it's a cancellation node EQ can't compensate for it but moving the cab close to the floor and tilting back would solve this. The ICEpower module in the tonehammer is capable (actually more powerful than that used in the Genz or GK MB500 even though they're rated similar outputs) so I'd be surprised if it didn't work well at 8 ohm.



Yes, absolutely an F2b type pre in a micro would be great! I suppose the micros are aimed at people who like 'more' features in general. My reservations probably would concern both EQ and gain, but particularly the latter (I think the passive tonestack in the F2b/whatever Fender clone is actually pretty mid scooped anyway...). I am really tempted to switch my F1 for a Fusion if I can find an extra £200 somewhere! But I'd need to try it first as the F1 is great - be pretty interested to hear your MB200, gigging with it sometime soon?
[/quote]

Saturday 23rd at Nobles in Leith. If that's not too much of a thread derail!

[Prime_BASS]

[quote name='1976fenderhead' timestamp='1339610750' post='1691527']
When using only one, it was the top one and I was sitting so it was pretty much pointing at my face. If anything when using 2 there was a more direct coupling with the floor adding lows? I also expected there to be only a difference in volume, but the tonal difference was massive, much fuller rounder sound, LOADS more headroom, totally different beast. Best way I can compare it is like the difference between running the Catalinbread SFT in 9v or 18v, but even much more evident and bigger improvement in this case. I then went back to one cab and tried to increase volume and EQ it to get close to the stack sound and couldn't get nowhere near!
[/quote]

I think it in terms of real world effects you are trying to explain. something that paper and data can't describe.
When running two 8 ohms cabs you only need half the power to get the same SPL, this is where the more 'headroom' thing comes into play. Also More speakers give you more, fact. Regardless of cab, power, amp, design placement. I doubt anyone with any amount of EQ can replicate the sound of more cabs with a single cab.

[molan]

I have some sympathy about running an SL112 on its own. I much prefer the sound of two of them stacked. I've had a very similar experience with other relatively small stacks I've owned - Berg AE 112's, Aguilar GS 112's & DB112's, Bag End 1x15 & 1x10 (which was a great little combo by the way).

Did you play around much with the tweeters at all?

When stacked I like to turn the lower cab tweeter right off & the upper cab about half way. However, when using just one cab I prefer the sound without a tweeter at all - no idea why but this just seems to 'work' for me

Not sure if you've mentioned this before but what are you currently using?

[1976fenderhead]

I actually started with tweeter off, didn't sound great, sounded better with it at default level than off I thought, but still 'wrong'.

You mean what rig I have? SWR 350x and Triad cab.

[Prime_BASS]

I found the same with two barefaced midgets stacked. One on its own although a mighty thing, it just wasnt the same as say a decent 2x10. Found I didn't need a tweeter either, loads of high end, but with two I felt a tweeter was needed to off set the added bass. It's like turning the eq on my phone to bass boost, the treble seems to dissappear.

[JTUK]

[quote name='1976fenderhead' timestamp='1339610750' post='1691527']
When using only one, it was the top one and I was sitting so it was pretty much pointing at my face. If anything when using 2 there was a more direct coupling with the floor adding lows? I also expected there to be only a difference in volume, but the tonal difference was massive, much fuller rounder sound, LOADS more headroom, totally different beast. Best way I can compare it is like the difference between running the Catalinbread SFT in 9v or 18v, but even much more evident and bigger improvement in this case. I then went back to one cab and tried to increase volume and EQ it to get close to the stack sound and couldn't get nowhere near!
[/quote]

Indeed, which is why I've always said use 2 and if you were only thinking one, then don't even bother.

[1976fenderhead]

I was thinking one for those gigs where I'm playing in a corner at the pub and 2 for proper stages but 1 sounded so bad I would want to use both anyway, which would be ok because they're so light it's unbelievable! But when I tried Vanderkley (210 or 112) and EBS Neolite (210) with a Little Mark before, they sounded good enough on their own (had to turn down the tweeter on the Vanderkley 210 though). I guess the SL's just aren't strong enough to work isolated...

[JTUK]

I've used GS112's extensively and once I put one cab down on the stage the footprint is determined. I was so underwhelmed with the performance of one in comparison to the two, that I take two to rehearsals.
I do this with Bergs as well.

This is not a problem to me as I don't feel that single chassis cabs are a total solution anyway for what I want..in terms of volume, tone or freq-range etc etc ..

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1339538546' post='1690369']
Very surprised at this. Personally I prefer the tube head that Markbass do, as I find the solid state pre to be very nasally and a little lacking in soemthing, not that it's bad it just doesn't tick boxes for me.
The added highs you are hearing is the extra harmonic distortion you get from having a tube in the signal, especially as it's a very clean amp anyway. I find the difference enough to ignore the solid state side all together. But it also depends on the cabs used. Been using barefaced and markbass and the difference is audible enough even at rehearsal volumes.
I also find that the gain needs to be set higher on the tube side to get the best signal to noise ratio, and lower on the solid state side. The thing is these amps arn't for breaking up they are for clean and transparent, but with the eq knobs and the filters you can use the head in any situation. Plus it weighs nothing!
Setting everything 12? Yes I do this only because I like the way my signal sounds DI'd and the cab's give a faithful representation of that signal, but on the gig cause I am going DI'd I will EQ to the stage/room so I can hear myself and the band can hear me.
Regardless of how big or small the tube is it creates what I like about preamp tubes, and thats enoough for me.

The TC stuff. It sounds great and looks great on paper but I would recommend that this be tried in the environments it's going to be used in. Yes the 450 is loud, but it's a different kind of loud. Louder than a 500watt Markbass head? No. It's hardc to describe how the head sounds. I had the RH750 for a while and it was loud but when it started pushing it had horrible dynamics, due to the way the power amp works. the on board compressor is nice yes but at volume it was useless, along with any minute EQ shift. Great amp, sounds good and feature packed but something missing. No way was it noticably louder than the 500watt MArkbass.

The Genz streamliners are just a better all round amp than the TC. Sound better at volume, if a little muchy in the lows. Again it has a similar compressing going on but only in the low band, so it does keep getting louder but only because it's squashing the lows.

At the end of the day, it's nice playing with stuff in a shop, everything sounds pretty decent. It's onlyon the gig where it matters. You may find the head you love in the shop doesn't perform on the gig. You also have to choose the amp for you and your needs.
My needs arn't very typical of a bassist, I just want to be able to hear myself clearly on stage, as most of the time I'm DI'd , I liek the sound of the DI thats not a problem. but when I need it to the Markbass will be the loudest thing there and pump my sound around a massive space.
[/quote]

Thats good that it works out for you.

When the LMTube came out, I went to the Bass Merchant and A/B'ed the LM3/LMTube and the LMTube800.

I decided that the 800 was too much volume wise, and didnt really listen to the tone that much as I was set on the 500 watt Class A/B LM amps.

Myself and the two guys at the BM setup the LM3 and the LMTube with the same bass, going through the same cab (Markbass 4x10), and switched between amps using the tall Markbass demo stand device.

We had the LM3 flat, the LMTube flat, and turned all the way to the tube setting.

Tried it at high volume levels, and I could barely hear any difference, and I was really listening because I was deciding between the two models. I wanted the LMTube because it seemed like a slick package, but I just couldn't hear it.

The LM2/3 sounds like quite a transparent 'clean' tube amp, as it warm and clear.

I was expecting distortion or grit...at all, I just wanted a different tube tone.

I love tubes, and I love solid state amps, and I couldn't hear enough difference between the LM3 and LMTube.

In my experience, and what seems like the consensus on thge first Talkbass RH450 threads, the RH450 is very very loud, and will quite easliy outrun the LM2/3 amp. I had the LM3 and RH450 at the same time. Obviously the volume tapers are different, (the master on the Markbass heads is a bit of a trick...they don't really do much after 1 o'clock) but the LM3 limiter clips hard and runs out of steam much quicker than the RH450. The RH750 is louder and has more authority.

The Streamliner 900 is a total volume BEAST. That all tube pre amp is a beautiful design and it really does achieve its goals...eg super clean loud fat tube tone. It will grit, but you don't have to.

I've recently acquired a Genz Shuttlemax 9.2, which has a fet and tube channel. Set flat, and switching between the two channels, there is quite a big difference in tone. It warms up, the high end has a more softer attack...and you get a little tube sag. Blending them is brilliant!

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1339605730' post='1691379']
That's not really how it works...
[/quote]

See above. It really isn't a full tube pre like Genz or GK MBFusion.

The LMTube's are using a tiny 6205 tube.

PS - The Genz Streamliner uses a high plate voltage.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Musicman20

[Musicman20]

This discussion of one 1x12 not cutting it have thankfully put me off buying a pair. May as well always use a 2x12.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1339691556' post='1692867']
The LMTube's are using a tiny 6205 tube.

PS - The Genz Streamliner uses a high plate voltage.
[/quote]

Ah, I hadn't realised the streamliner was HV as well! Got to be worth looking at, thanks for the heads-up.
But the valve being small doesn't matter - all the 12AX7-based amps run in starved plate mode aren't going to sound as 'valve-y' as a small tube run at proper spec voltage. That 6205 is also a relatively high-voltage tube, so not great at low voltage for the same reasons as a 12AX7 but I bet in the right circuit it could sound fantastic.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1339691599' post='1692869']
This discussion of one 1x12 not cutting it have thankfully put me off buying a pair. May as well always use a 2x12.
[/quote]

or a couple of them (or 2 2x10s).

[Musicman20]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1339694879' post='1692935']
Ah, I hadn't realised the streamliner was HV as well! Got to be worth looking at, thanks for the heads-up.
But the valve being small doesn't matter - all the 12AX7-based amps run in starved plate mode aren't going to sound as 'valve-y' as a small tube run at proper spec voltage. That 6205 is also a relatively high-voltage tube, so not great at low voltage for the same reasons as a 12AX7 but I bet in the right circuit it could sound fantastic.
[/quote]

Ah, I see what you mean now! Thanks. Yep, the STreamliner is a very cool design.

[incubass]

No one seems to mention the Fender TV Fifteen, has anyone tried this combo?

[stingrayPete1977]

This has turned in to quite a telling thread and one that should be read by anyone taking the plunge for a new amp! Everyone is different, most peoples take on the GB Shutle is that it is too natural almost like a single channel PA set very clean, I would certainly struggle to describe it, that said the 3.0 with no valve sounds totally different to the 6.0 and I guess the Streamliner sounds totally different again? I can see the comment about the low pass filter has come up again and Im still not sure about it, me and musicman20 have been over it at length before so I wont go into all too much but [u]both[/u] the 9.0 and the 6.0 have the same 37Hz cut off point when the deep button is depressed, anything lower regarless of the speakers is only felt by humans as air movement rather than heard! Unless your going to be playing very very loud Dubstep where your holding low notes for a prolonged periods I cant see an issue.

[Jack]

I'm one of the people who found the Streamliner a bit ..... lacking? It's got volume for days but it just seemed a bit mushy in the lows and too tubey for my tastes. It does a very good SVT impression though. Very happy with my MB Fusion.

[Lozz196]

Looking at your sig Jack, I`m sure you`re going to be even happier in July, when that Barefaced set-up lands.

[stingrayPete1977]

At the end of the day they are all good we are spoilt for choice really

[1976fenderhead]

So now after some more research, I'm really GASing for an EBS Reidmar and a pair of ClassicLine 112's, any thoughts? Should try it with 1x112 this weekend, the price is very, very interesting as with any other brand you pretty much only get 1x112 cab for this price, not 2. An EBS NeoLine I tried a few weeks ago was probably my favourite with Vanderkley a close second, so if it's in anyway close, seems like an awesome package.

[molan]

I tried a set up at a loud rehearsal last night with twin lead guitars that really quite surprised me.

I used the trusty TH500 but into a little MarkBass Traveler 2x10. I only really bought this cab because it's one of the very few units that will slot neatly into the boot of a Z4.

I used my Ritter Cora and it sounded great through the Aggie/MB rig. Really punchy and sat perfectly in the mix without me really having to try very hard to balance things.

All the tone controls were set at flat on the bass and 12:00 on the amp with the Drive set around 11:00 an tweeter cut by about 3/4 on the cab.

Not sure where the dominant sound was coming from (apart from my fingers,lol) but the overall combination was great.

Didn't think the MB cab had the grunt for this gig but paired with the TH500 it was really nice - or was it just that Ritter that was making all the difference, who knows eh?

[thepeanmachine]

I recently bought a [color=#000000][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]Markbass Mini CMD 121P, personally it's a perfect fit for me. I'm playing in a jazz quartet these days so masses of volume aren't really needed (although so far it's not gone past halfway!) I'll eventually buy a traveller cab to go with it for bigger gigs, but I love the sound and mainly the fact it weighs just 13kg! Bass in one hand, amp in other - in and out no bother, I can fit everything in the missus' micra! I used to have a Warwick 4x10 and an ampeg head of course it doesn't sound as good but the back breaking weight is NOT missed one bit. Filters on the Markbass gear are awesome, basically it's 2 'sound ace' switches. The only question is how ace do you want it to sound?! [/size][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]Personally I love amps that I plug into and with little to no pissing around with sound good. Markbass Mini CMD does that. 15" version is WELL worth a whirl too.[/size][/font][/color]

[Lozz196]

I`m yet to hear a bassist using a Markbass amp where I don`t like the sound. At present my GK MB Fusion 500 and Schroeder 410 are easy for me to manage, but once I have difficulty with these (the cab mainly, can`t see the Fusion being difficult) a Markbass combo will be on the cards.