Replacing 10" speackers in my Trace cab?

[mav]

I've just added a power amp to my SWR ST220 and with the extra Watts going into my Trace Elliot 2103H cab it's pushing it pretty hard, i'm thinking of replacing the speakers for something with more power handling like 300-400 watts 8 ohms.
Is it possible?
Has anybody attempted this?
As long as there a matching pair it doesn't matter?

[Merton]

I put 2 Eminence Beta 10s in my old TE 2x10 cab, that's 500W @ 8 ohms handling. Sounded nice!

[mav]

Really, that easy? I'm googling to see if there avaliable in Aus.


Edit, and they are, $141 each.

Is it a simple job to replace? i'm pretty handy with a soldering iron.

Edited April 21, 2008 by mav

[mr pablo]

[quote name='Merton' post='181606' date='Apr 21 2008, 10:26 AM']I put 2 Eminence Beta 10s in my old TE 2x10 cab, that's 500W @ 8 ohms handling. Sounded nice![/quote]

Yup it does sound nice

[Merton]

[quote name='mav' post='181610' date='Apr 21 2008, 10:31 AM']Really, that easy? I'm googling to see if there avaliable in Aus.


Edit, and they are, $141 each.

Is it a simple job to replace? i'm pretty handy with a soldering iron.[/quote]
Yup

[quote name='mr pablo' post='181650' date='Apr 21 2008, 11:27 AM']Yup it does sound nice [/quote]
Good good (I'd go as far to say it sounds BETTER with the Eminences...) Sorry I never saw ya last time you were in London, hopefully next time!

[mr pablo]

[quote name='Merton' post='181656' date='Apr 21 2008, 11:35 AM']Yup


Good good (I'd go as far to say it sounds BETTER with the Eminences...) Sorry I never saw ya last time you were in London, hopefully next time![/quote]

yeh dude i was pretty busy when i was last down, i'll be down again in a few weeks cause my band has a gig in camden on the 17th may

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='mav' post='181600' date='Apr 21 2008, 04:21 AM'], i'm thinking of replacing the speakers for something with more power handling like 300-400 watts 8 ohms.[/quote]The wattage rating of a driver has virtually no bearing on its output capability. That is determined by the drivers cone displacement, Vd, so unless you can find out what the Vd spec is for your current drivers there's no way of knowing what you need to replace them with to gain an improvement. [quote]As long as there a matching pair it doesn't matter?[/quote]The drivers must be matched to the cabinet volume and tuning frequency or they won't function properly.

[mav]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='181903' date='Apr 22 2008, 12:34 AM']The wattage rating of a driver has virtually no bearing on its output capability. That is determined by the drivers cone displacement, Vd, so unless you can find out what the Vd spec is for your current drivers there's no way of knowing what you need to replace them with to gain an improvement. The drivers must be matched to the cabinet volume and tuning frequency or they won't function properly.[/quote]
So two different opinions ?
I was thinking if TE could push 500watts out of there 210 they would.
I also downloaded winisd but i'm having trouble working it out.

[KennysFord]

i changed the out hartke speakers in my tp410 for celestion bl's.it was fairly easy to do and the results were well worth the effort.

[stevie]

[quote name='mav' post='186324' date='Apr 27 2008, 10:15 AM']So two different opinions ?
I was thinking if TE could push 500watts out of there 210 they would.
I also downloaded winisd but i'm having trouble working it out.[/quote]

Bill's right. Can you imagine a pair of 10-inchers handling 500 watts of low B? Power handling is the amount of electrical power the voicecoil will take before it overheats. With bass guitar, your ten-inchers will reach their excursion limits well before that happens. If you're comparing drivers of the same size, xMax is the figure to look for: it tells you the excursion capability of the driver. The Eminence Beta 10 has an xMax of 3mm, which is pretty useless by today's standards. Look for a driver with at least 5mm.

Then you need to deal with the question of whether the drivers will work properly in your cab. If you can spec the right driver you are likely to get a substantial improvement over what you have now.

Stephen

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='mav' post='186324' date='Apr 27 2008, 05:15 AM']So two different opinions ?
I was thinking if TE could push 500watts out of there 210 they would.[/quote]No musical instrument ten will take 250 watts broadband without exceeding xmax. The average is 50.

[quote]Look for a driver with at least 5mm.[/quote] Very few tens go higher than 4mm, and those that do, like the BP102, have less sensitivity, so what you gain in one area you give back in the other.

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='186525' date='Apr 27 2008, 02:59 PM']Very few tens go higher than 4mm, and those that do, like the BP102, have less sensitivity, so what you gain in one area you give back in the other. [/quote]

Er, no... this is incorrect and quite misleading, not to mention confusing. The 6mm Xmax of the BP102 is a reasonable specification which will not lead to any loss of efficiency at bass frequencies. Higher excursions on a ten-inch driver might, but only because of a possible knock-on effect on cone area. Midrange efficiency is irrelevant for bass guitar amplification because there is always plenty to spare.

Although the Eminence Beta 10 produces 5 or 6dB more than the BP102 at mid frequencies (100Hz and above), it's a different matter below 100Hz. Put either of these drivers into a typical 30-litre cabinet tuned to 40Hz and their sensitivity will be roughly the same between 40Hz and 100Hz - even though there is a big difference in both their Xmax and FS.

In mav's case we are not even concerned about maximizing sensitivity, because he has an excess of amplifier power. What we are concerned about is maximizing output, and you do that by maximizing Xmax, or Vd if you like, although driver size is a given here.

In a 30-litre box the Beta 10 will produce a maximum of 96dB at bass frequencies before it exceeds its excursion limits. The BP 102, on the other hand, will deliver a theoretical 104dB and handle 100 watts before Xmax becomes a problem.

The difference between 3mm and 6mm excursion is clear, and definitely worthwhile.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='stevie' post='187150' date='Apr 28 2008, 06:51 AM']Er, no... this is incorrect and quite misleading, not to mention confusing. The 6mm Xmax of the BP102 is a reasonable specification which will not lead to any loss of efficiency at bass frequencies. Higher excursions on a ten-inch driver might, but only because of a possible knock-on effect on cone area. Midrange efficiency is irrelevant for bass guitar amplification because there is always plenty to spare.[/quote]Tone is midrange. To get the extra xmax of the BP102 other T/S specs are also affected, resulting in a paltry 88dB sensitivity at 500 Hz. On it's own it sounds dull and lifeless, it needs to be used with a midrange driver to sound good. I don't recommend the BP102 for any of my full range speaker designs. OTOH, it does work very well in subs.

[gypsymoth]

the gentleman could compare the recomended box sizes at www.eminence.com with the size of his current cabinet - while looking over the frequency range/spl charts for 10" speakers. check the PA speakers too - they used to be the bass speakers.

there should be something there that will serve his purposes well, and sound better than what came in the box.

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='187665' date='Apr 28 2008, 10:36 PM']>Tone is midrange.[/quote]
Aha - do I hear the sound of goalposts being shifted?
[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='187665' date='Apr 28 2008, 10:36 PM']To get the extra xmax of the BP102 other T/S specs are also affected, resulting in a paltry 88dB sensitivity at 500 Hz.[/quote]
No, incorrect again. Its sensitivity is 92dB. The 'paltry sensitivity' of 88dB at 500Hz is a suckout, which has nothing to do with the T/S parameters or the Xmax. You should know that.
[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='187665' date='Apr 28 2008, 10:36 PM']On it's own it sounds dull and lifeless, it needs to be used with a midrange driver to sound good.[/quote]
I'm not surprised. It's got a suckout in the midrange. What do you expect? Anyway, a mid suckout wouldn't necessarily exclude it as a bass guitar speaker, whilst farting on low E would.

To demonstrate that an adequate Xmax does not result in reduced midrange efficiency, look at the published curve for the Celestion NTR10-2520E, which has an Xmax of 5mm and a sensitivity of 93-95dB throughout the midrange. It's here: [url="http://professional.celestion.com/pro/products/nti/detail.asp?ID=9"]http://professional.celestion.com/pro/prod...detail.asp?ID=9[/url]. This looks like a very nice driver, by the way, although I think it's a bit new to get a price on.