Pay to Play your gig? WTF!?

[Chris Horton]

This is absolute madness and totally wrong.

As many people have mentioned , this is caused by greedy promotors etc.
I personally would not give them the time of day or entertain the idea.

Hopefully one day they will take the hint if all bands do the same thing

[steve-bbb]

hmmm guess it was only a matter of time before the 'make sure you bring a crowd along with you' syndrome turned into this new extra dimension

maybe the (lazyass) promoters need to consider that the time wasted on chasing ticket sales will mean less time spent on rehearsals to ensure a good performance (but somehow i doubt they will as that would adversley affect their profit margin and so therefore is not worth them even considering)

i can see how this sort of principle might work with DJs and clubs but not live bands and proper music venues - i guess greedy promoters are nothing new in the entertainment industry , they just dream up new and intersting ways to behave like total cox and pi55 off the very people they are relying on for their revenue stream

[BigRedX]

On the whole no.

The majority of "pay to play" gigs are a random selection of unknown bands thrown together in a venue for one night. It's a simple way for the promoter/venue to make sure they don't loose money putting on a gig with for them the minimum amount of effort. The bands themselves rarely get anything out of it either financially or in terms of building their audience.

There are circumstances where I would consider it. Supporting someone well known whose audience would potentially like our band and provided that our slot was on the same stage and immediately before the headliners. And I'd want it all in writing up front. That way it could be looked as an investment in building audience numbers for future gigs and a bigger market for selling our merchandise to.

However on the whole there is no need. If you're a new band and you need to find your gigging feet then you should be able to find a coupe of free slots to get you started. After that provided that your band is actually entertaining, you should have no trouble getting gigs that at the very least cover your expenses. And I'm talking originals bands here (covers bands should never be playing for free).

Dick Venom & The Terrortones did a handful of free gigs when we were just starting but since then we have been able to command our expenses at the very least. These days we make enough money out of playing gigs to cover all our travelling and other gig related costs and still have enough left over to pay for our rehearsal time. See it can be done.

[pietruszka]

[quote name='TheRev' timestamp='1338973368' post='1681710']
My band has had similar issues with a well known venue in Bristol.
The promoter approached us after a very successful support slot and asked if we could play at his venue - in anyones language, this constitutes a booking, right? Over a series of emails it turns out that he's not actually willing to pay our fee, but rather we will have to sell tickets to his event, for which we will get £1 for the first 50 pepole who say they came to see us and £2 per ticket afterwards. The promoter claimed that we could potentially make £450 (our standard fee) if the night sells out. But given that the other bands on the bill would also be selling tickets under the same deal, we couldn't see how we'd make more than £200. We were also expected to arrange the four other bands for the event.....

Essentially, the promoter stood to take £1200+ in ticket sales (if the event sold out) from which we stood to make £200 and the other bands on the bill £50 and we, the bands, would be doing all the work.

We told him to stuff his event.
[/quote]
Yep, it's absolutely disgraceful. At what point is the promotor promoting? We tell people that we are asked to play a live set and that's what we'll do, we're a live band, not a box office or event organiser/promotor.

The promotor I thought of in my first post in this thread on Mondays gig sat at the side of the room arms crossed, almost as if he didn't want us to do well. The room absolutely loved it, called for an encore and promotor 'X' put the music back on through the desk and muted us all.



Dan

[Gust0o]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1338976947' post='1681781']
On the whole no.

The majority of "pay to play" gigs are a random selection of unknown bands thrown together in a venue for one night. It's a simple way for the promoter/venue to make sure they don't loose money putting on a gig with for them the minimum amount of effort. The bands themselves rarely get anything out of it either financially or in terms of building their audience.

There are circumstances where I would consider it. Supporting someone well known whose audience would potentially like our band and provided that our slot was on the same stage and immediately before the headliners. And I'd want it all in writing up front. That way it could be looked as an investment in building audience numbers for future gigs and a bigger market for selling our merchandise to.

However on the whole there is no need. If you're a new band and you need to find your gigging feet then you should be able to find a coupe of free slots to get you started. After that provided that your band is actually entertaining, you should have no trouble getting gigs that at the very least cover your expenses. And I'm talking originals bands here (covers bands should never be playing for free).

Dick Venom & The Terrortones did a handful of free gigs when we were just starting but since then we have been able to command our expenses at the very least. These days we make enough money out of playing gigs to cover all our travelling and other gig related costs and still have enough left over to pay for our rehearsal time. See it can be done.
[/quote]

All good stuff, here.

For the promoter it's a de-risking strategy - with them selling the tickets upfront they're guaranteed a certain level of income, regardless; and, let's face it. I'm sure there are countless examples of bands not bringing a crowd to have given them the idea.

I've gone near the concept before, in terms of agreeing with a venue how many we'll look to sell - but have never bought them outright, prior. I'd certainly draw the line there.

But, as X notes, it can work for some people, where it's the right gig - but, generally, I wouldn't endorse it.

[Krysbass]

[size=4][color=#000000][font=Calibri]“Pay to play” is endemic in Manchester’s Northern Quarter too. Until late last year, I was in an originals band and we gigged in several well-known venues in that area – in all of these we had to sell a quota of tickets. Invariably we didn’t and so ended up paying for some of the tickets ourselves. [/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Calibri]The main reason I left the band was that when I added the cost of the tickets to travelling expenses and exorbitant parking charges in NCP car parks, I was effectively paying through the nose for the “privilege” of entertaining people[/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Calibri]Fortunately, I’m not a career bassist, so during a lengthy break in gigs I asked to be replaced, but I do feel sorry for bands who are trying to get off the ground and make a living out of it when this kind of exploitation goes on. The band I was with is still going strong - good luck to 'em.[/font][/color][/size]

Edited June 6, 2012 by Krysbass

[flyfisher]

. . . . on the other hand, how many unsigned bands spend their own money on recording sessions and CD duplication? That's a form of promotion isn't it with all the attached risks. I doubt many unknown bands could persuade a studio to give them free recording and production time in return for a slice of CD sales.

Again, not saying this is a good thing, but all parties want to reduce their financial risk wherever possible. After all, where's the financial risk to a band for a paid gig? If the venue and promotor are taking all the risk, I assume they see pay-to-play as a way of sharing this risk more equally.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Chris Horton' timestamp='1338975562' post='1681750']
Hopefully one day they will take the hint if all bands do the same thing
[/quote]

Don't hold your breath. That's the same sort of reasoning that says petrol prices would come down if people refused to pay current prices. It might be true in theory but it ain't ever gonna happen in practice.

[RockfordStone]

i've been in bands where they have expected us to sell a certain number of tickets before.
being as rock n roll as we were, we didnt bother and showed up anyway and never had a promoter turn us away at the door or make us pay to perform.

it seems like an insurance that the night will make money.

ive often found that these types of shows are a mish mash of different genre's, rather than a metal night or a rock night that my actually pull punters

[TimR]

As I say, it's not new. We were doing it in the 80s.

The biggest problem we found was that, even if you bring loads of people and 'sell' loads of tickets, the promoters were unable to count accurately.

The link to the MU shows you what to look out for.

Advertising costs. Take your CDs and T-shirts and sell them at the gig make more money.

[pietruszka]

[quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1338985000' post='1681941'] ive often found that these types of shows are a mish mash of different genre's, rather than a metal night or a rock night that my actually pull punters [/quote]

Yes! I've noticed that as well! We played along side some very very rock and metal bands, and we're soft country rock! It would be nice for promotors to promote a night of live music entertainment rather than get naive bands in for lining their own pockets. It happens cos the moment a band cottons on another new and naive band comes along to take their place. As I view it anyway.





Dan

[Gust0o]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1338985459' post='1681954']
The biggest problem we found was that, even if you bring loads of people and 'sell' loads of tickets, the promoters were unable to count accurately.
[/quote]

Haha, I think I know of what you speak. We have had this; however, by way of restoring the karmic balance, we went to go drink elsewhere and took our crowd with us, which prompted a more reasonable discussion

[TheRev]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1338984791' post='1681931']
. . . . on the other hand, how many unsigned bands spend their own money on recording sessions and CD duplication? That's a form of promotion isn't it with all the attached risks. I doubt many unknown bands could persuade a studio to give them free recording and production time in return for a slice of CD sales.

Again, not saying this is a good thing, but all parties want to reduce their financial risk wherever possible. After all, where's the financial risk to a band for a paid gig? If the venue and promotor are taking all the risk, I assume they see pay-to-play as a way of sharing this risk more equally.
[/quote]

But a CD or recording session is the band's own product from which they hope to make a profit on investment, therefore it's only right that they should put their own money into that project.
However, when a venue asks your band to play and then demands that you sell tickets as well to ensure you get paid is byond the pale. You are a band, your job is to entertain the venues' punters, not ensure that the venue if filled in the first place. Are the venue staff wages tied into how well a night does? Is the sound guy out there selling tickets? Does a promoter putting on a national tour insist that each venue personally sell a specific number of tickets to ensure the night goes ahead?
I've only done a couple of small tours, but in each case, the promoter carried the risk - on some nights he lost money, on others he raked it in and overall he made a profit on the tour. It's the promoters skill that ensures he make enough money to keep himself in a job. What these pay-to-pay clowns are doing is getting bands to underwrite any losses while keeping the lion's share of the profits.

[Lozz196]

Pay to Play was very big in London in the late 80s, and seems to still be doing the rounds, though many have sussed it for what it is - promoters doing no work, and getting lots of money.

Fortunately I`ve never been in a band that has paid to play, and as a point of principle, I won`t do it. Equally fortunate is that i`m in bands with like-minded people.

[Low End Bee]

We've been asked to do this a few times.
I ask them if the bar staff and cleaners have to meet the same terms and conditions in order to provide their services.
Then I tell them that in my opinion they are in the music business for all the wrong reasons but we're not.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TheRev' timestamp='1338986555' post='1681973']
But a CD or recording session is the band's own product from which they hope to make a profit on investment, therefore it's only right that they should put their own money into that project.
[/quote]

I entirely agree. But isn't a live show also the band's own product from which they hope to make a profit? So why shouldn't they be asked to take on some of the financial risk? Just saying.

I suspect the real problem is that 'pay to play' is a broad brush and can't make sense across the wide range of bands out there. It would clearly be ridiculous to ask, say, the Stones to pay to play a gig as there is pretty much zero risk of not selling out. But an unknown band in a small venue is another matter and there's a pretty high risk of not selling enough tickets to cover the costs, so the wish for the promoter to share the financial risk is understandable . Between those extremes will be every other shade you can think of and will make greater or lesser sense to the parties involved.

But, as someone previously pointed out, hiring a small venue need not be expensive so there's nothing to stop a band doing their own event . . . . unless of course they don't like the idea of risking their own money if not enough people turn up.

Edited June 6, 2012 by flyfisher

[TheRev]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1338992544' post='1682086']
I entirely agree. But isn't a live show also the band's own product from which they hope to make a profit? So why shouldn't they be asked to take on some of the financial risk? Just saying.
[/quote]

Because the band are playing music, which is their part of the deal, just as the bar staff and the sound engineer have their jobs to do. Now, a band should take some responsibility for promotion via the interweb or posters or whatever as it is in their best interests to promote themselves, but to have to sell tickets for an event where someone else makes most of the profit is extracting the urine. As has already been suggested, if a band can sell that many tickets themselves, they may as well hire the venue outright and put their own show on.

A promoters job is to stage events, which involves a certain level of risk for a potentially large return - much like investment banking. I don't like subsidising those b#*tards either.....

[Protium]

The Surface Unsigned Festival is one gigantic pay-to-play con. Guess which bands get voted through to the next round at the end of the night? The ones who sold the most tickets

[tauzero]

I have done pay-to-play gigs a few times - however, this was for the Tamworth Rock Festival, which was a free admission festival, so the bands pitched in for PA and PLI and to get in a couple of trailers for the stage. I'd happily do that again, but I wouldn't do Surface or other pay-to-play profit-making events.

[TimR]

But lozz, are you playing covers or are you getting paid to play originals.

There's a fine line when you're playing originals with pay to play.

When I played originals in the late 80s we hired a few halls and sold tickets to our friends. We just about covered hall hire and PA hire. We managed to get friends to man the door.

The first time we learned a few lessons.
1. The band that was supporting us ran off with their ticket money leaving us to pay everything from the share that was left.
2. When we started to play, the guys manning the door came in to watch, leaving the door unattended and loads of people just walked in.

After that we had a few other problems with drug pushers and gatecrashers which in the end made pay-to-play a less expensive option.

So long as you're not getting ripped off, it can work well.

[oggiesnr]

If, as a band, you are going to promote your own gigs then you have to do it in a professional manner which includes having reliable people on the doors, controlling the money etc and the hundred and one other things that a promoter [i]should[/i] do (but many don't).

I suppose it comes down to how you see your band and how you approach playing your music. If it's a hobby then fine, hobbies have costs and if you want to pay to play before an audience then that's part of the cost of your hobby. If you don't mind some else making money off you playing that's also fine.

At the other end of the spectrum, it's the Music [i]Business. [/i]Highly important that word "business", it means that you have to watch alll aspects of what you do and hopefully make money at the end of the day. Without the business there is no music. I could make a case for a "pay to play" gig, just. But I couldn't make a case for doing many of them and part of the business aspect of it is I would want to be very sure that there was a payback that justified it.

Show of Hands are probably one of the most successful and business like acts on the folk scene (OK don't switch off at the F word). This article is getting a bit long in the tooth now but the fact that they are still going 15 years later may be a reccomendation. Anyway it's about their approach to the business side of the music biz (and some other stuff as well) [url="http://www.folkmusic.net/htmfiles/inart383a.htm"]http://www.folkmusic.net/htmfiles/inart383a.htm[/url]

Steve

[stingrayPete1977]

Years ago people used to go to local gigs to watch all four bands regardless of who they were, some we liked, some were crap, some are now or at least were then well known. That whole idea of just going to a gig for the sake of it has gone, it can be used as a for or against pay to play really.

From a personal point of view, the last one we attended the jargon for we walked out halfway through whilst newbies lapped up the amazement of being able to use an Ashdown bass amp and Marshall guitar amps! Great.

[discreet]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1338938100' post='1681546']
I've been gigging for well over 30 years now. I've never paid to play and I never will.
[/quote]

Me neither. This sucks giant hairy moose balls.

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1338936344' post='1681528']
At least now I know I'm not just being an asshater.[/quote]

Asshater! What a great name for a homophobic metal band.

Edited June 6, 2012 by discreet

[rOB]

Never paid to play and hopefully never will. Point of principle.

However, I believe its important to do your best to get the word about the gig out to as many people as possible and help the promoter sell tickets. Being friendly and helpful in the past has created positive working relationships with a couple of local promoters and venues.

[quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1339004678' post='1682331']
Show of Hands ... [url="http://www.folkmusic.net/htmfiles/inart383a.htm"]http://www.folkmusic...s/inart383a.htm[/url] [/quote]
Interesting read. Thanks for posting.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1339004856' post='1682335']
Years ago people used to go to local gigs to watch all four bands regardless of who they were[/quote]
I still do this. Have seen some great gigs. Have also seen some terrible gigs.

[stingrayPete1977]

There's always the bar rob! Im glad some people still go for the sake of it, cool.