Pay to Play your gig? WTF!?

[phil.i.stein]

we just kidnap people and force them to listen.

[rOB]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1339007241' post='1682395']
There's always the bar rob! Im glad some people still go for the sake of it, cool.
[/quote]
Exactly!

[Dad3353]

[quote name='phil.i.stein' timestamp='1339007336' post='1682398']
we just kidnap people and force them to listen.
[/quote]
'Clockwork Orange' style..?

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TheRev' timestamp='1338994462' post='1682119']
A promoters job is to stage events, which involves a certain level of risk for a potentially large return - much like investment banking. I don't like subsidising those b#*tards either.....
[/quote]

Yep, the old risk/reward equation. So a band taking zero financial risk gets little reward and the promoter taking all the risk reaps the benefits.

That's how the world works.

[icastle]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1339008415' post='1682432']
Yep, the old risk/reward equation. So a band taking zero financial risk gets little reward and the promoter taking all the risk reaps the benefits.

That's how the world works.
[/quote]

Zero financial risk?

By the time a band has equipped itself, paid for rehearsal space and cut the obligatory CD, that's a pretty big financial commitment.
Whether that is classed as a 'risk' or not is pretty immaterial - they've invested that money plus time to get to where they are.

A promoter spends a couple of hundred quid (if that) and expects to get £1000+. that 'risk' is pretty much non existant and, in my vernacular, constitutes taking the p*ss.
If a promoter is that certain of their abilities then there is no need for them to operate PTP, if they aren't certain of their abilities then they are in the wrong industry.

[flyfisher]

OK, fair points, except . . . after buying all the gear, it costs a band nothing to play a gig. A promoter might be certain of their own ability to organise etc, but they can't be certain about a band's appeal, especially new/unsigned bands.

Again, I'm in no way agreeing with pay-to-play but I am trying to understand the market forces that have created the concept in the first place. We can't deny it exists and we can't deny that many bands go along with it, so why is this?

[TomWIC]

[quote name='Protium' timestamp='1338995197' post='1682128']
The Surface Unsigned Festival is one gigantic pay-to-play con. Guess which bands get voted through to the next round at the end of the night? The ones who sold the most tickets
[/quote]

It's weird that you should say that. My band was in last year's festival, and never had to pay a penny. We were given however many tickets we wanted, and we only ever had to give them money for the tickets that were sold. And in all honesty, we sold sod all and just had people buy their tickets on the door instead, so they didn't make very much from us. Made it through to the semi-finals too (lost out on the regional finals by one point).

We recently dealt with JAR music - absolutely horrendous. Giving money for tickets sold I've always seen as fair cop to be honest, but they demanded money for unsold tickets out of an allocation they kept giving and giving to us. Their organsation was terrible, providing us with a huge list of gear that would be available for us to use on the night to make things easier (mainly drums and related items) so our drummer travelled to the gig light - when we got there, none of what they advertised was there!

Their sound engineer was absolutely terrible too. They also did zero promotion for it. Never again!

Edited June 6, 2012 by TomWIC

[stingrayPete1977]

But did you have to pay an entry fee or similar to surface festival at the very beginning? We were told at one of these that it was a £50 deposit when you sign up to stop bands dropping out if a paying gig cropped up last minute, that's fair enough but you didn't get the £50 back you got 25 tickets for heat 1

[BigRedX]

Sometimes I think that some originals bands have an over-developed sense of entitlement.

IMO it's not enough to be in a band and simply turn up at a venue expecting the promoter to have done all the work. It's a two-way deal. The band should be letting everyone know that they will be playing and the promoter/venue should be doing the same.

I've seen it from the other side too. Over the last 18 months the Terrortones have done several gigs where we organised the whole evening's entertainment. The amount of apathy and general untogetherness displayed by some of the bands was staggering. We basically got in touch with a whole load of (mainly) local bands that we liked the sound of, asking if they would be interested in playing. All they had to do was turn up at the venue on the evening of the gig and play. The venue would supply the PA. We'd provide drums and a basic backline and do all the main publicity. Admission would be free. We negotiated a deal with venue and if the bar takings were good enough we'd split any money between all the bands. Half the bands we contacted didn't even get back to us. One band dropped out with no reason given after all the posters and flyers had been printed. Another turned up so late on the evening just before they were due to play and spent ages setting up and then complained when we told them they had to cut their set short otherwise the evening would over-run...

If you do it properly promoting a gig can be a thankless task. I can see why some just want to take the money and do little else.

[pietruszka]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1339013296' post='1682522']
Sometimes I think that some originals bands have an over-developed sense of entitlement.

IMO it's not enough to be in a band and simply turn up at a venue expecting the promoter to have done all the work. It's a two-way deal. The band should be letting everyone know that they will be playing and the promoter/venue should be doing the same.

I've seen it from the other side too. Over the last 18 months the Terrortones have done several gigs where we organised the whole evening's entertainment. The amount of apathy and general untogetherness displayed by some of the bands was staggering. We basically got in touch with a whole load of (mainly) local bands that we liked the sound of, asking if they would be interested in playing. All they had to do was turn up at the venue on the evening of the gig and play. The venue would supply the PA. We'd provide drums and a basic backline and do all the main publicity. Admission would be free. We negotiated a deal with venue and if the bar takings were good enough we'd split any money between all the bands. Half the bands we contacted didn't even get back to us. One band dropped out with no reason given after all the posters and flyers had been printed. Another turned up so late on the evening just before they were due to play and spent ages setting up and then complained when we told them they had to cut their set short otherwise the evening would over-run...

If you do it properly promoting a gig can be a thankless task. I can see why some just want to take the money and do little else.
[/quote]

Very true, and it is a pain in the hole when people don't cooperate. I think the main issue here is the fact that theres a lot of promoters who take advantage of bands naivety and make it seem that they should be grateful for the opportunity to gig. It's also the fact that a lot of promoters lump their own work onto the bands.
My band (original) promotes and advertises our own gigs, but the promoter we've unfortunately had to use doesn't, and thats the problem we have. He even rang our singer up for Mondays gig and asked where we were, well she said, we've been playing in south Wales all weekend. His response was "all the other bands have been here all day, get here as soon as you can". Did we even get £5 of expenses seeing as it was an all day festival? No, we didn't. He would have made a good few hundred quid that day, and how many of the other acts had I heard of? 1, and only 'cos they played the sorry excuse of a festival a couple of months before. Most of the time he literally stands about looking smug, drinking. And I mean drinking a lot.

Sorry for a fairly rant-y post, but this particular guy is a tool, and I had a gash gig, again. His organisation skills are non existent at best.


Dan

[icastle]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1339009668' post='1682456']
OK, fair points, except . . . after buying all the gear, it costs a band nothing to play a gig. A promoter might be certain of their own ability to organise etc, but they can't be certain about a band's appeal, especially new/unsigned bands.
[/quote]

That's the first rule of business though - 'can I sell this?'
If the answer is 'no' then you just walk away from the deal.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1339009668' post='1682456']
Again, I'm in no way agreeing with pay-to-play but I am trying to understand the market forces that have created the concept in the first place. We can't deny it exists and we can't deny that many bands go along with it, so why is this?
[/quote]

Several reasons I reckon.

1) A potential, albeit a longshot, 'shortcut' to getting a following.
2) A naivity about the way the music industry (generically) works.
3) A tendency to get caught up in these schemes and either convince themselves that 'this is normal' or 'a good deal' or, worse still, don't have the courage to say 'NO'.
4) Seeing PTP as an expense in the same way as recording a CD.
5) Inability to look at the larger mathematical picture and see the reality behind PTP.
7) Inability to count.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1338998110' post='1682186']
But lozz, are you playing covers or are you getting paid to play originals.

There's a fine line when you're playing originals with pay to play.

When I played originals in the late 80s we hired a few halls and sold tickets to our friends. We just about covered hall hire and PA hire. We managed to get friends to man the door.

The first time we learned a few lessons.
1. The band that was supporting us ran off with their ticket money leaving us to pay everything from the share that was left.
2. When we started to play, the guys manning the door came in to watch, leaving the door unattended and loads of people just walked in.

After that we had a few other problems with drug pushers and gatecrashers which in the end made pay-to-play a less expensive option.

So long as you're not getting ripped off, it can work well.
[/quote]

Well certainly with the covers band, there`s no pay to play, but also with my current originals band (and all those that preceded) pay to play is/was not an option.

[Prime_BASS]

After a few successful shows we actually asked how much it is to hire the venue(that we usually play at) plus a sound man. It tunrs out to break even, with a decent on the door/tickety price we break even what I would consider empty.

The actual work comes in when they have to take free time out to get 'randomers' off the street to come in, promising a good night.
Inviting your friendlist to the event page, and expecting each band memeber to do the same isn't promotion.

I've done this enough to know that people ignore thos invitations, I know I do the majority of the time.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Prime_BASS

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1338992544' post='1682086']
I entirely agree. But isn't a live show also the band's own product from which they hope to make a profit? So why shouldn't they be askedto take on [b]some of the financial risk[/b]? Just saying.
[/quote]

The problem is, that if you do the sums, at these "pay to play" gigs the bands are taking 100% of the financial risk in return for about 20% of the (potential) profits. In my experience, these kind of scams are a sure sign of a lazy promoter who won't bother to actually try and promote a gig or a regular night.

Instead, they are perfectly happy to throw together some incoherent mess of four or five bands who won't appeal to each other's audiences and with pretty much zero quality control.

[uncle psychosis]

I've posted this before on the forum but it seems a sensible place to post it again. Its a blog entry by an Edinburgh promoter/record label about "reasons promoters and bands don't get along". I think its very interesting reading---especially because it comes from someone who I would class as a "good guy" when it comes to promotion and putting on gigs.

http://songbytoad.com/2011/07/a-few-reasons-promoters-and-bands-dont-get-along/

[Protium]

[quote name='TomWIC' timestamp='1339010265' post='1682470']
It's weird that you should say that. My band was in last year's festival, and never had to pay a penny. We were given however many tickets we wanted, and we only ever had to give them money for the tickets that were sold. And in all honesty, we sold sod all and just had people buy their tickets on the door instead, so they didn't make very much from us. Made it through to the semi-finals too (lost out on the regional finals by one point).

We recently dealt with JAR music - absolutely horrendous. Giving money for tickets sold I've always seen as fair cop to be honest, but they demanded money for unsold tickets out of an allocation they kept giving and giving to us. Their organsation was terrible, providing us with a huge list of gear that would be available for us to use on the night to make things easier (mainly drums and related items) so our drummer travelled to the gig light - when we got there, none of what they advertised was there!

Their sound engineer was absolutely terrible too. They also did zero promotion for it. Never again!
[/quote]

Your experience with JAR is very similar to what we had with Surface. Indeed never again!

[lojo]

Been happy in the past to push tickets for fundraisers etc, but certainly not as part of the deal, and certainly never would be forced to cover the ticket costs before sales, even for a charity let alone a private venture!

[BottomE]

Bands go along with it cos they can't get any other gigs. Thats what i am guessing otherwise why would they do it?

Its self perpetuating and the promoters thrive on this.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1339013296' post='1682522']
Sometimes I think that some originals bands have an over-developed sense of entitlement.
[/quote]

I'd just refer the entire thread back to this. Over and over again.

It, perhaps, [i]is[/i] self-perpetuating - but it allows people to play gigs. We're not all career musos, some of us just play for fun and don't count the change; it's horses for courses. If it doesn't work for you, don't do it; if it does, fill your boots.

[topo morto]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1339073392' post='1683241']
We're not all career musos, some of us just play for fun and don't count the change; it's horses for courses. If it doesn't work for you, don't do it; if it does, fill your boots.
[/quote]

Surely the basic idea of bands doing the rounding up makes a lot of sense - for bands with a smaller fanbase (or maybe even no real 'fanbase' yet, just a few mates), if a few bands play together you might get a couple of hundred people together pretty easily, and that's a gigs' worth, and who knows, maybe a chance to make some real fans.

if a 'promoter' is taking a big cut, that's the silly part. Just take out the middle man - get together as bands, hire the venue and do it yourself.

[dbass]

It's just like any form of business really and that is you get good promoters and bad. Luckily I've worked with some very good ones lately - namely Cheese Weasel Promotions in Leicester. He puts so much effort in to promoting the bands and we've always had bumper crowds in the venues he's put us in. Not all promoters are bad eggs but it's our job to search them out. The bad promoters will prey on young bands normally or inexperienced bands looking to just get on the circuit and I have had these offers thrown at me loads of times. It's just up to you and the band

The harshest offers are when it's to an out of town gig (as in bloody miles away) and they ask you to sell at least X amount of tickets. We have managed this a few times by arranging our own minibuses but it can't be done every gig you play more than 10miles away.

[Protium]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1339073392' post='1683241']
I'd just refer the entire thread back to this. Over and over again.

It, perhaps, [i]is[/i] self-perpetuating - but it allows people to play gigs. We're not all career musos, some of us just play for fun and don't count the change; it's horses for courses. If it doesn't work for you, don't do it; if it does, fill your boots.
[/quote]

But it works both ways. If a band sells the tickets and performs, the promoter should be expected to keep up their end of the deal - actually promote the gig, and provide that backline they always promise but never quite manage to sort out

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1339019542' post='1682681']
I've posted this before on the forum but it seems a sensible place to post it again. Its a blog entry by an Edinburgh promoter/record label about "reasons promoters and bands don't get along". I think its very interesting reading---especially because it comes from someone who I would class as a "good guy" when it comes to promotion and putting on gigs.

[url="http://songbytoad.com/2011/07/a-few-reasons-promoters-and-bands-dont-get-along/"]http://songbytoad.co...dont-get-along/[/url]
[/quote]

Bump for this post. The linked blog also contains a splendid debate from which we could all learn.

Thanks for putting this up, Uncle Psychosis

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1339084847' post='1683430']
Bump for this post. The linked blog also contains a splendid debate from which we could all learn.

Thanks for putting this up, Uncle Psychosis
[/quote]

+1, it is excellent. Sneaky Pete's is/was an excellent venue. No.1 son's band was barred from Bannerman's (just down the road from SP's) when they were playing there; the venue across the road was doing £1 a pint, so they were nipping over there for drinks instead of buying "in-house". (Kids eh? Who'd have 'em!?)
Best one tho' was straight out of the Blues Brothers. My son was being kept IN a venue by the manager (& a bouncer) as he reckoned they owed £60 bar bill from last time they were there; being a pay-to-play joint that I wasn't best pleased about anyway, I took a bit of delight in facing them down.
The place burnt down shortly later (alleged insurance job) taking out an excellent Irish bar nearby, a cafe, amusement arcade, a hotel and a few flats into the bargain; and the manager - last I heard - had done a runner.

[gjones]

The originals band I play in were offered a deal, by a promoter, where we would support Alabama 3 at a decent venue in London but had to buy £300 worth of tickets (which we could sell at a 25% mark up to get our money back). Unfortunately the band all live in Edinburgh and we know very few people in London and therefore would have no chance of selling 50 tickets and getting our money back. But if you were a London band with a following it could be a good deal to get a bit of recognition for your band.