BottomE Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 [quote name='ZMech' timestamp='1339271867' post='1686296'] This reminds me of all those times I asked what I thought was a simple question, and regretted it 10 minutes into the answer. [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 [quote name='lobematt' timestamp='1339341666' post='1687080'] [url="http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Be-Bop-Leonard-Feather/dp/1451530528"]http://www.amazon.co...r/dp/1451530528[/url] Has anyone read this inside bebop?? [/quote] No but i have read a lot of books of this kind. What is it you are looking for from reading? I rate these The Birth Of Bebop: a scoali and musical history by Scott Deveaux [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Birth-Bebop-Musical-Foundation/dp/0520216652/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1339355762&sr=1-1-sp"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Birth-Bebop-Musical-Foundation/dp/0520216652/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1339355762&sr=1-1-sp[/url] Giant Steps: Bebop and the creators on modern jazz 1945-65 by Kenny Mathieson [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Giant-Steps-Creators-Modern-1945-65/dp/0862418593/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1339355922&sr=1-4"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Giant-Steps-Creators-Modern-1945-65/dp/086[/url] [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Giant-Steps-Creators-Modern-1945-65/dp/0862418593/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1339355922&sr=1-4"]2418593/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1339355922&sr=1-4[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) [quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1339349260' post='1687241'] Yes but as with science there can abnormalities . I'm not talking about people that wrote the songs not understanding. There are instances in songs where 1 chord is in there, out of the blue with no real explanation other than 'it changed key for half a bar or a bar'. And personally, that's not a valid analysis for me. [/quote] So a transient modulation, a standard compositional tool, should be overlooked as simply 'some random chord' because you don't think it's valid for analysis? That's just ridiculous. Not understanding specific compositional techniques is a perfectly valid and honourable reason to not understand when analysing a piece. I don't see why so many musicians try to find reasons to cover that up. We've all been in that place when certain things don't add up and it's just a case of filling gaps in knowledge until things make sense. Too much bravado and saving face to admit that in the world of musicians though. Edited June 10, 2012 by skej21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romberg Bevel Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) [quote name='visog' timestamp='1339347409' post='1687201'] Eh? What! Can you go again only slower...? [/quote] I think he's trying to say that you might be mistaken in thinking that a Bb blues is in Eb because it can use the same notes as an Eb major scale (though that clearly becomes problematic when you get to the F chord) and to beware of accidentals that colour the music and don't necessarily influence the basic harmonic structure. Edited June 10, 2012 by Romberg Bevel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 [quote name='Romberg Bevel' timestamp='1339357416' post='1687416'] I think he's trying to say that you might be mistaken in thinking that a Bb blues is in Eb because it can use the same notes as an Eb major scale (though that clearly becomes problematic when you get to the F chord) and to beware of accidentals that colour the music and don't necessarily influence the basic harmonic structure. [/quote] I was saying that you may be fooled intpo thinking a Bb blues is in Bb because its called a Bb blues but it isn't and that, when the mode changes from Bb mix to Eb mix, it is a key change, but the chart will remain in the same key that it started in and not change key. My point is that, if you know what key the tune is in, don't be fooled into thinking that the whole thing remains in that key for the whole tune.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lobematt Posted June 10, 2012 Author Share Posted June 10, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1339356078' post='1687377'] No but i have read a lot of books of this kind. What is it you are looking for from reading? [/quote] I just wanna try to learn a bit more about how it all works really. I'm reading 'To Be Or Not Too Bop' at the min, which is where I of heard Inside BeBop from. TBONTB is a good book but it's a biography and I'd like to read something going a bit more into the technical side of it too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romberg Bevel Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1339359172' post='1687459'] I was saying that you may be fooled intpo thinking a Bb blues is in Bb because its called a Bb blues but it isn't and that, when the mode changes from Bb mix to Eb mix, it is a key change, but the chart will remain in the same key that it started in and not change key. My point is that, if you know what key the tune is in, don't be fooled into thinking that the whole thing remains in that key for the whole tune.. [/quote] A Bb blues is in Bb harmonically. I don't think we hear a 12 bar blues as constantly changing key - it's really a variation of an 'old as the hills' I, IV, V surely? It [i]could[/i] be described differently, but then to be consistent we couldn't really admit chord IV7. If I were to read a blues in Bb, I'd expect the key signature to have two flats and the usual accidentals that signify 'blues in Bb', and, happily, the majority of music I've encountered does this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 My point is simply that, if you play a Bb blues, you would not play a Bb major scale i.e. it is not in Bb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 [quote name='lobematt' timestamp='1339359670' post='1687479'] I just wanna try to learn a bit more about how it all works really. I'm reading 'To Be Or Not Too Bop' at the min, which is where I of heard Inside BeBop from. TBONTB is a good book but it's a biography and I'd like to read something going a bit more into the technical side of it too [/quote] You need Davis Baker's three books on Bebop (How To Play Bebop 1, 2 & 3). That'll do it (they aren't expensive). All the pther books are narrative and not likely to give you what you want. The Baker books are great (you can also get them on Kindle if you want but the musical examples are not good/too small on the Kindle and should only be used if you are reading them on a PC). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romberg Bevel Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1339411572' post='1687957'] My point is simply that, if you play a Bb blues, you would not play a Bb major scale i.e. it is not in Bb [/quote] Well no, because that would be failing to take the blues idiom into account. Besides, we don't determine key only by which scales could be played – of great importance is the tonal centre and how things relate to that. In a Bb blues, Bb is home. Should we say that d dorian is [i]really[/i] in C? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Probably! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lobematt Posted June 11, 2012 Author Share Posted June 11, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1339411750' post='1687962'] You need Davis Baker's three books on Bebop (How To Play Bebop 1, 2 & 3). That'll do it (they aren't expensive). All the pther books are narrative and not likely to give you what you want. The Baker books are great (you can also get them on Kindle if you want but the musical examples are not good/too small on the Kindle and should only be used if you are reading them on a PC). [/quote] Thanks I'll take a look! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romberg Bevel Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1339444335' post='1688663'] Probably! [/quote] Sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 [quote name='Romberg Bevel' timestamp='1339439451' post='1688543'] Should we say that d dorian is [i]really[/i] in C? [/quote] gets debated a lot and there never seems to be a real answer. Personally i prefer it written in the key of Dminor and then work out that its D dorian from the dots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romberg Bevel Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 [quote name='OliverBlackman' timestamp='1339460224' post='1688901'] gets debated a lot and there never seems to be a real answer. Personally i prefer it written in the key of Dminor and then work out that its D dorian from the dots [/quote] Hmm. What key is 'So What' in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1339411750' post='1687962'] You need Davis Baker's three books on Bebop (How To Play Bebop 1, 2 & 3). That'll do it (they aren't expensive). All the pther books are narrative and not likely to give you what you want. The Baker books are great (you can also get them on Kindle if you want but the musical examples are not good/too small on the Kindle and should only be used if you are reading them on a PC). [/quote] Thanks for the tip Bilbo, Amazon have books 2 and 3 as kindle downloads, but not the first. Do you have any links to where to buy the first one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 [quote name='Romberg Bevel' timestamp='1339518381' post='1689781'] Hmm. What key is 'So What' in? [/quote] Keys? Where we're going we don't need keys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 So What is based around D dorian so it the key signature on the chart would be C. When it goes to Eb dorian, the key signature could change to Db major. Or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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