SONG RIGHTS

[AKA]

We're Looking to go into our studio soon to record a few songs of our own material onto a cd to sell at our gigs, local muso shops etc, we are also thinking of putting a cover song or 2 on the cd that we play out live, i was wondering whats involved with getting the necessary permission to do this, anybody had any dealing with this sort of thing? looking for a bit of advice or info of what people with need to speak to.
Aka.

[xgsjx]

I think if you're recording a cover then you need to get permission from the copyright owner & arrange to pay royalties. I don't believe it's a difficult thing to do.

[pietruszka]

As far as I'm aware, it only becomes a problem when you charge for your cd. If you are, as above, get in touch with the copyright owner.





Dan

[flyfisher]

Is it true that you actually need [u]permission [/u]to record or perform a cover?

I'm sure I've read that the only legal requirement is to pay the appropriate royalty.

I don't know the definitive answer though.

[AKA]

we had thought about giving them out free at first as it was only gonna be a EP single cd,
but we are thinking now of a 7 or 8 track cd and selling it to cover our costs.

[OliverBlackman]

[quote name='AKA' timestamp='1339579393' post='1690756']
we had thought about giving them out free at first as it was only gonna be a EP single cd,
but we are thinking now of a 7 or 8 track cd and selling it to cover our costs.
[/quote]

is it originals? If its originals and you don't mind other people potentially stealing the material then no you don't need any rights. If you do want to protect them then you need to get performance cover with PPL and songwriting cover with PRS. Although these are more designed to map sure you get paid for tv/ radio play then to protect your music so do cost a bit to do.

The tricky thing with PRS royalties is deciding who gets the songwriting fee's as songwriting is technically just the melody and lyrics that are protected which often leaves the bass player and drummer out of pocket unless the guitarist/ singer is particularly friendly.

If it's covers you need to send a form to PRS with a list of the songs you wish to recover. This way the artists who wrote the song get a royalty for you playing their music (which you have to pay). I believe the forms available on PRS' page.

Obviously not many people do it and i'd be surprised if that many people got caught.

[pietruszka]

To my knowledge the issue is when you claim it as your own. If you don't charge for the cd and you credit the original artist then I don't see a problem. I don't see why you would have to pay a royalty fee for performing a cover. How would pub and wedding bands get by?

Again, this is all to my knowledge, you could give the MU a shout.



Dan

[Earbrass]

If you want to cut a "real" CD, rather than the CD-Rs that are used for smaller runs, you may find that the cutting plants won't make your CD unless you fill in forms confirming that you have all the necessary permissions from the composers. Not usually an issue for CD-Rs, as anyone can make them.

[AKA]

Big thanks guys,
great bit of info for us there, food for thought as they say.
cheers Aka

[Musky]

It's PRS-MCPS you need to contact, specifically the MCPS side of things. Doesn't matter whether it's for sale or not, it needs to be cleared. I seem to remember someone on here got into a bit of bother a few years ago by hosting covers on their website. Cost will depend on how many you're pressing up, though you can always take the risk of not clearing them if they're CDR's. It's down to you to consider if that risk is worth it.

[AKA]

thanks Musky,
prob not worth the risk i feel, its looking like its gonna be down the CDR route with about 6 of our own tunes
and 2 covers, so will look into doing the necessary things to make sure there's no come backs.
Gotta also thank oliverblackman who posted earlier about protecting our own tunes, not put much thought into that 1
will defo be sorting that 1 out!!!

[Musky]

Your songs are automatically copyright as soon as you record or transcribe them. The trick is proving the date you created it. Posting a registered/recorded copy to your self in a sealed envelope or depositing it with a bank/lawyer used to be a common way of doing it, but it's not infallible. Quite honestly releasing the songs and asserting your rights over them are the best way of going about it, though if your making up your own CDR's you don't get the same kind of paper trail you would if getting them pressed. Perhaps loading them up to a hosting site which date stamps them might do the trick? I'm really not up on these matters in the digital age, but ultimately it's up to a court to examine any evidence in the event of a dispute.

[Dood]

[quote name='pietruszka' timestamp='1339580120' post='1690766']
I don't see why you would have to pay a royalty fee for performing a cover. How would pub and wedding bands get by?
[/quote]

The venue that the band is performing at should hold a PRS entertainment license. Some of the cost of the license is said to cover (on average) any cover versions / disco tracks being played. This money should get back to the copyright owner via the license fee? Not that I have ever seen that detailed on a royalty payment myself!!

I once played a covers gig and two retired ladies came in with PRS cards asking for a list of the covers that we play, as the venue was getting a 'spot check' from PRS. I assume these surveys are to get an idea what material is being performed in venues, but I can certainly see that this isn't an exhaustive survey!

[pietruszka]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1339667895' post='1692186']
The venue that the band is performing at should hold a PRS entertainment license. Some of the cost of the license is said to cover (on average) any cover versions / disco tracks being played. This money should get back to the copyright owner via the license fee? Not that I have ever seen that detailed on a royalty payment myself!!

I once played a covers gig and two retired ladies came in with PRS cards asking for a list of the covers that we play, as the venue was getting a 'spot check' from PRS. I assume these surveys are to get an idea what material is being performed in venues, but I can certainly see that this isn't an exhaustive survey!
[/quote]
That makes sense actually, and I did consider that after I posted. Next time two people come up to you and ask for your set list just respond with "yes we are playing Mustang Sally tonight!".





Dan

[OliverBlackman]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1339667895' post='1692186']
The venue that the band is performing at should hold a PRS entertainment license. Some of the cost of the license is said to cover (on average) any cover versions / disco tracks being played. This money should get back to the copyright owner via the license fee? Not that I have ever seen that detailed on a royalty payment myself!!

I once played a covers gig and two retired ladies came in with PRS cards asking for a list of the covers that we play, as the venue was getting a 'spot check' from PRS. I assume these surveys are to get an idea what material is being performed in venues, but I can certainly see that this isn't an exhaustive survey!
[/quote]

PRS send scouts out to find out what songs are being performed most and how many covers are played in bars, pubs, venues ect. and then charge a fee based on averages. It's a big operation.

[oggiesnr]

If you have not aleady done I suggest that you as a band need to sort out who has written what of your originals and get that agreed in writing before you start recording them. This will save considerably more hassle down the line should lightning strike and one of your songs be picked up either by radio or another artist and become worth real money.

Steve

[AKA]

Thanks again for all the advice, there's loads there that we haven't thought about but are now are trying to sort out.
looking forward to getting into the studio soon to record some stuff, not done it before so not sure what to expect!!!
should be fun!

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='OliverBlackman' timestamp='1339676038' post='1692456']
PRS send scouts out to find out what songs are being performed most and how many covers are played in bars, pubs, venues ect. and then charge a fee based on averages. It's a big operation.
[/quote]
[quote name='dood' timestamp='1339667895' post='1692186']
I once played a covers gig and two retired ladies came in with PRS cards asking for a list of the covers that we play, as the venue was getting a 'spot check' from PRS. I assume these surveys are to get an idea what material is being performed in venues, but I can certainly see that this isn't an exhaustive survey!
[/quote]

So should we sort a co-operative thing so if any of use are asked what songs we cover, we tell the PRS we cover each other's songs, keep the money in the community.

[Musky]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1340409687' post='1704292']
So should we sort a co-operative thing so if any of use are asked what songs we cover, we tell the PRS we cover each other's songs, keep the money in the community.
[/quote]
Or tell them they're your own songs - if you're a PRS member you'll get paid for them as well.

Some venues routinely submit the set lists of bands to PRS, as well as the flying visits to random venues. Because these venues are used as a sample it'll be assumed the same songs will have been played at other venues as well, so you'll get paid for more than just that one instance.

[BigRedX]

As I PRS member I log every Terrortones set list. The average pub gig is worth £6 split between all the songs played that evening. However you only get the money if you claim. Judging form last year's gig royalties very few of the other bands that we've shared the bill with have bothered to log their sets. Last year as a band we made approximately £150 in performance royalties from playing our own songs in public. That pays for quite a few hours in the rehearsal room.

[Mr. Foxen]

How do you go about logging them then? Paper or electronic?

[BigRedX]

It's all electronic done through the PRS website. You need to be a PRS member. You also need to have all your songs that you play registered with the PRS (and to get the most out of it all the co-writers in your band need to be PRS members too).

Then you just start a new live performance claim. Pick the songs that you played from the list of songs registered, add the venue details and hit submit. It's alittle bit more complicated if you play any covers in your set as you have to go hunting for them and you'll be surprised how many songs there are with the same title!

There's two levels of venue - most pubs and clubs come under the fixed £6 for the whole evening scheme, but the "bigger" venues, theatres and festivals have a separate system which involves filling in a word document and emailing it and is potentially worth more money. I say "bigger" but I discovered that when we played at the Cluny in Newcastle the main venue counts in the Pubs and Clubs scheme while the smaller capacity Cluny 2 is classed as a theatre. By entering the venue name and address on the PRS site you can find out which category it falling into.

Depending on how many songs you have to register it'll take a couple of hours to get set up after your PRS membership comes through and then about 5-10 minutes to log each gig.

Edited June 23, 2012 by BigRedX

[Musky]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340436609' post='1704363']
As I PRS member I log every Terrortones set list. The average pub gig is worth £6 split between all the songs played that evening. However you only get the money if you claim. Judging form last year's gig royalties very few of the other bands that we've shared the bill with have bothered to log their sets. Last year as a band we made approximately £150 in performance royalties from playing our own songs in public. That pays for quite a few hours in the rehearsal room.
[/quote]
That's handy to know - I hadn't realised that you could submit your own set lists. Cheers for that.

[lettsguitars]

Unless you are a major band looking to shift serious units, I really can't see what the fuss is about. Just dont list the covers on the sleeve if you like to worry about stuff. You wont be going to prison (unless there's something else i dont know about).

[oggiesnr]

[quote name='lettsguitars' timestamp='1340528911' post='1705548']
Unless you are a major band looking to shift serious units, I really can't see what the fuss is about. Just dont list the covers on the sleeve if you like to worry about stuff. You wont be going to prison (unless there's something else i dont know about).
[/quote]

Nope you just roll the dice and hope that no-one notices, if they do then it gets a lot more expensive than getting the clearances in the first place.

Steve