Need advice about woods...

[charic]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1339747282' post='1693548']
Let's assume, for a moment, that what you say about vibrations is correct. It may not be correct or, even if it is correct, the influence might be extremely small or even irrelevant compared to a host of other factors but nonetheless, we'll assume it is correct and of more than minimal relevance.

[b]I agree that the change could be tiny, however isn't EQ all about "tiny tweaks", however I agree that they are probably small changes.[/b]

It still doesn't follow that certain species of wood are so-called 'tonewoods' and other species of wood are not so-called 'tonewoods'. Your term 'different woods' will apply to different pieces of wood of the same species just as it might apply to different species.

[b]If there is infact a change between pieces of wood then I would expect it to vary between wood of the same species aswell. Although two pieces of wood of the same species are more likely to have more "in common".[/b]

It's also extremely odd that looking like a coffee table and being a great so-called 'tonewood' so often appear to be in correlation.

[b]Alder, Ash, Bubinga, Wenge, Maple, Mahogonany... none of these are coffee table woods[/b]
[/quote]

Just thinking outside the box a little please remember it's all just thoughts, definitely not saying I'm right

[muttley]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1339746339' post='1693534']
Just a thought:

String vibrates over a magnetic which sends a signal...

Now here's were I just had a rather major thought, the wood the pickup is housed in vibrates when you play aswell, when this happens both the string and the pickup are moving so you get a different sound coming out. Different woods would vibrate in different ways/amounts surely.

/UtterBollocks?
[/quote]

The entire structure of a solid body electric instrument vibrates when the string is excited. This is because no structure is infinitely rigid or infinitely massive. However, I would suggest that the method of construction is at least, if not more, influential than the mechanical properties of the wood used. When everything else is thrown in (electronics, string, player) the influence of the actual wood is much much less.

I essentially made the same point in [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/147691-tonewoods/page__p__1317002__hl__conditions__fromsearch__1#entry1317002"]this post[/url].

[muttley]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1339710958' post='1693321']
If it isn't plugged in, there isn't an electric bit. There is still a tone though.
[/quote]

An artifact at best, surely? The string will radiate some sound (and a line source is a very efficient radiator of sound), the body and neck structure also due to it not being infinitely rigid. However, surely these are not designed-in characteristics? Don't they just "happen"?

[Mr. Foxen]

The body radiates sound, its a much larger speaking area. Its the same artifact as the acoustic output of any other instrument.

[Kiwi]

String vibrates because its part of a stiff structure.

The structure can be made of any material. The degree of stiffness influences how much sustain there is.

All materials have a resonance. This resonance can be at a frequency that coincides with the vibrations of a string or not. It depends on the harmonics in the resonance and the harmonics in the string at the frequency it vibrates at. If the resonance is at a frequency which is lower than the lowest frequency of the vibrating string, then this results in a more consistent sound and no deadspots.

The two mix in unpredictable ways sometimes.

The more uniform the structural material is, the more predictable and consistent the resonance characteristics will be. Graphite composite is a very consistent material. The results are fairly consistent if the same construction techniques are used.

This is what Alembic and (I guess) Status aim for. Whether their instruments sound attractive is a matter of taste (and in some cases signal chain).

Where wood is concerned, it is very inconsistent. When supporting a vibrating string, the resonance characteristics of wood will vary according to density, weight and mass. These properties will vary not only between wood from trees of different species but also between locations on the same tree. For example, wood nearer the root will typically be denser than wood further up. It is possible, in principle, to find wood from different species and different locations in a tree that have similar properties also. So a piece of alder can have similar characteristics to a piece of mahogany.

The main value that a CUSTOM luthier will bring to a bass building project is their ability to predict the resonant characteristics of a piece (or pieces) of wood BEFORE they build the instrument and understand what that means, in terms of tone, to the customer.

Imagine how many instruments it would take, for example, for someone to understand the full spectrum of character that...say, maple necks and alder bodies have. I'd suggest it would probably take about a hundred to a hundred and fifty instruments to become confident. Assuming those instruments were all built the same way and with the same woods.

With luthiers who provide custom instruments of whatever wood configurations the customer requests it gets really complicated. How many instruments would it take for them to predict the tonal characteristics of all the different woods selected, in various applications as neck lams, wings, tops, fingerboards, etc.? Thousands?

There's a lot to be said for setting limits. Wal did this with their mahogany bodied instruments and sycamore/hickory necks. They ended up with a very consistent product. ErnieBall/Musicman, Alembic, Celinder, Tobias and Ken Smith have too.

Bass making is like cooking. You can add yeast, water and flour together consistently and get a relatively consistent but boring product...bread. Add the same ingredients but use wholemeal flour...or brown sugar...or brewers yeast to replace one ingredient. How much difference does that make? These are like woods. What if other flavouring ingredients were used, like onion, herbs or seeds? These are like electronics, pickups or strings.

The important thing is to find someone who makes something consistently first, and secondly something that sounds attractive. So much of what I've tried has been inconsistent between instruments. I believe predictability is the most important quality for a bass guitar. Otherwise, go into a music shop and try something. If you like it, buy it. Don't expect any other instrument ever made in the history of creation to sound as good.

You pays your money and you takes your choice but none of us are there to fund a luthiers' training.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1339747086' post='1693543']
Because our wallets are bigger than our ears.
[/quote]
I'm asking as someone with a small wallet....
[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1339747194' post='1693544']
I can answer this one...

The first wouldn't cost you a lot as is made with low cost labour, the second would cost you considerably more as is made by someone who needs to cover their overheads (& they might use better electronics ) and the third would cost even more due to shipping & customs & Warmoth parts actually work out pretty dear!

Edited as I misread the 2nd Q.
[/quote] But apart from cost.... imagine cost is irrelevant. And in this example we are ignoring cost. Fodera make a bass based on a fender jazz, as does mr shuker, Fender FMIC do, Cort make many, ACG does now too, as does overwater..... now if cost is irrelevant for this question... what is the difference between a good bass and a bad bass? Or put it anther way, I find a good jazz bass, say a good tokai jazz, what advantage would a custom builder bring to it?
(or cheekily, take sadowsky who make bolt on instruments- what do they do differently in New York to FMIC in California?)

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1339753893' post='1693688']
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]There's a lot to be said for setting limits. Wal did this with their mahogany bodied instruments and sycamore/hickory necks. They ended up with a very consistent product. ErnieBall/Musicman, Alembic, Celinder, Tobias and Ken Smith have too.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Bass making is like cooking. You can add yeast, water and flour together consistently and get a relatively consistent but boring product...bread. Add the same ingredients but use wholemeal flour...or brown sugar...or brewers yeast to replace one ingredient. How much difference does that make? These are like woods. What if other flavouring ingredients were used, like onion, herbs or seeds? These are like electronics, pickups or strings.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The important thing is to find someone who makes something consistently first, and secondly something that sounds attractive. So much of what I've tried has been inconsistent between instruments. I believe predictability is the most important quality for a bass guitar. Otherwise, go into a music shop and try something. If you like it, buy it. Don't expect any other instrument ever made in the history of creation to sound as good. [/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]You pays your money and you takes your choice but none of us are there to fund a luthiers' training. [/font][/color]
[/quote] there's a lot of sense spoken here Kiwi.

[muttley]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1339753772' post='1693683']
The body radiates sound, its a much larger speaking area. Its the same artifact as the acoustic output of any other instrument.
[/quote]

I'm not denying that. Large area yes, but tiny amplitude. However, an electric instrument's output is not the amplified acoustic output from the body. The acoustic output when played non-amplified is an artifact of the fact that a) no structure is infinitely rigid and b.) the strings will radiate some sound. It's the finite rigidity of the structure that will potentially have an influence on the sound (see the link above to my other post).

Edited June 15, 2012 by muttley

[Kiwi]

The bass, simply as a structure, will vibrate if it isn't 100% stiff. Build a bass out of granite. A granite bass guitar might be 95% stiff. It'll vibrate still but not to a degree that it will impact on the sound that can be heard. It would be a pretty efficient structure. A granite mountain might be 99.999999999% efficient. It will still vibrate but not to a measurable degree.

Conversely, build a bass out of stiff foam rubber. It'll make a sound but a very dead sound with no sustain.

Which is attractive? It's subjective. But just because a material is structurally efficient doesn't mean it will sound attractive.

Dampening is pretty important. Rob Green knows this. He's gone from MDF cores in his Stealth I instruments to epoxy foam in his Stealth II instruments because the epoxy foam has more attractive dampening properties. Not a piece of wood in sight. But damn fine sounding instruments all the same.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1339747282' post='1693548']
It still doesn't follow that certain species of wood are so-called 'tonewoods' and other species of wood are not so-called 'tonewoods'. Your term 'different woods' will apply to different pieces of wood of the same species just as it might apply to different species.

It's also extremely odd that looking like a coffee table and being a great so-called 'tonewood' so often appear to be in correlation.
[/quote]

Absolutely, up to a point...(addressed below) the coffee table factor totally blurs the real question.

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1339748631' post='1693578']
But as no two pieces of wood are the same even from the same tree how would you say [i]x[/i] class off wood gives [i]y[/i] results?
[/quote]

Wood does show variation from one bit to the next... but not nearly as much as between certain species eg pine versus oak. If the variation was so huge then no critical structure could ever be built out of wood! Or you'd just always use the cheapest fastest-growing species and sort for good v bad. My father-in-law is a structural engineer who specialises in timber and they have all sorts of info on structural properties of wood by variety. Some types are much more consistent than others, and some species are much further from average than others.

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1339748631' post='1693578']
Then aren't most pickups mounted on springs or foam therefore dampening the vibrations from the wood to the Pick up giving a somewhat shock absorber affect?
[/quote]
Pickups don't transduce mechanical vibrations directly (unless they're microphonic) but they electrically sense the vibration of the string, which is affected by whatever it's mounted to (ie bridge, nut, and whatever holds them in tension ie the wood)

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1339748631' post='1693578']
Then of course the location of the pickup changes the tone considerably so if wood wasa defining factor would moving a pickup an inch make a difference?
[/quote]
Yes, that's just like saying the guitar is a defining factor so would putting reverb or EQ on it make a difference. Broadly speaking a pickup acts just like a rather complicated filter that happens to be position-dependent. You could get rid of this variable in a test rig to simplify things, by using a piezo.

[Muzz]

While we're on about tonewoods, I've previously seen on the Warmoth site two P-bodies of the same size and wood (Black Korina IIRC) which were wildly different weights, I'm talking 40% heavier (and therefore denser), not just a bit. Taking the earlier points about good luthiers and wood selection, they'd obviously take this into account, but it does rather kibosh the generalised tonewood descriptions we see so much of.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1339753893' post='1693688']
String vibrates because its part of a stiff structure.
[/quote]

The lack of stiffness in the structure (and other resonant properties causing damping etc) is what effects the vibration of the string.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1339755939' post='1693743']
The lack of stiffness in the structure (and other resonant properties causing damping etc) is what effects the vibration of the string.
[/quote]

That's the same thing, just approached from the other direction surely? The stiffness in the structure is critical for the tuning of the string, if the wood vibrated substantially at low frequency you'd have too much interaction and pitch would wobble all over the place depending on how hard you held the neck! It would sound all weird and intermodulation-distortiony

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1339755939' post='1693743']
The lack of stiffness in the structure (and other resonant properties causing damping etc) is what effects the vibration of the string.
[/quote]
Yes. It affects the sustain and frequency response.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1339756219' post='1693749']
That's the same thing, just approached from the other direction surely? The stiffness in the structure is critical for the tuning of the string, if the wood vibrated substantially at low frequency you'd have too much interaction and pitch would wobble all over the place depending on how hard you held the neck! It would sound all weird and intermodulation-distortiony
[/quote]
It wouldn't wobble. You're describing phase cancellation which only happens where there are two or more sources of vibration.

The tuning of the string is a property of tension, not dampening.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1339756219' post='1693749']
That's the same thing, just approached from the other direction surely? The stiffness in the structure is critical for the tuning of the string, if the wood vibrated substantially at low frequency you'd have too much interaction and pitch would wobble all over the place depending on how hard you held the neck! It would sound all weird and intermodulation-distortiony
[/quote]

apart from the weirdness I always thought thats what dead spots were? the resonant pitch of the wood and the string leading to cancellation or something

[Kiwi]

OK so there's a lack of clarity here.

Pitch is a property of the tension of the string. Increase the tension and increase the pitch.

But when you play a note, the string doesn't just emit vibrations at one frequency. It emits them at a whole range of frequencies, its just that some are louder than others. Play a harmonic and you'll hear just the higher frequencies of an open string without hearing the main note (sometimes called the fundamental). Those harmonics have a mathematical relationship to the fundamental. But they won't have the same volume as the fundamental, which is why you will hear the fundamental frequencies more when you play the note normally.

The stiffness of wood dampens the volume of other harmonics that you hear. But the way it dampens varies depending on how stiff the wood is and how the wood vibrates along with the string.

Play a through necked solid graphite bass with a phenolic fingerboard and hifi pickups. You'll hear pretty much everything because the bass as a structure isn't vibrating much. Some might describe the sound as clattery and brittle because a lot of harmonic content is making its way through to your ears. You might also miss additional warmth if you're used to the sound of wooden instruments.

A soft wooden fingerboard would dampen some high frequencies. Higher frequencies tend to be more directional and easier to dampen. The higher frequencies also tend to come directly from the points where the fretted string contacts the instrument i.e. fret and bridge saddle. Because both fret and string saddles offer points of contact you could probably achieve a similar effect to a wooden fingerboard by mounting the string saddles on a piece of fingerboard material as well. ErnieBall latched on to this with the mahogany 'toneblocks' in their 25th anniversary stingrays.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1339756667' post='1693758']
apart from the weirdness I always thought thats what dead spots were? the resonant pitch of the wood and the string leading to cancellation or something
[/quote]

Its actually resonance that does dead spots, the structure is resonant at that frequency and takes the energy from the string. Its like that thing when people say somehting is 'more resonant' when they mean 'less resonant'.

[LawrenceH]

Just realised Mr Foxen has also mentioned another factor which is really important but I don't think anyone has talked about, the damping factor (Q). Just like in a loudspeaker or electronic filter this relates to bandwidth and amplitude at resonance. Pick two hypothetical bits of wood with the same resonant frequency but very different q, make them into solid blocks like xylophone keys and hit them. The high q bit of wood will ring longer and sound a clearer note than the low q bit. Put a string along it and tune it to a similar frequency and pluck it, acoustically you will still get very different outputs as one block amplifies the note better than the other. Now add on a piezo and you should see the effect electrically as well, and all without a hollow body.
Can the question be simplified to ask what is the difference in resonant frequency and q between different bits of wood, and how do the frequencies of resonance relate to the notes of a bass guitar? If the resonance isn't anywhere near the first few harmonics (say arbitrarily higher than 1k) and/or q is always low (the fact xylophone keys work would suggest otherwise) then wood variations couldn't impact much on tone. But otherwise then you'd expect to be able to measure it. I think in a lot of designs they're stiff enough that the major resonances ARE shifted higher and/or well damped which is why pine lumber can sound similar to say a guitar-shaped lump of alder. Laminate construction will obviously help here, making it stiff enough to shift the resonances higher to a range where they're not able to impact upon major string overtones. BUT, and this is from building loudspeakers and hearing the resonant panel modes in relation to their size, I would expect that some types of construction would have resonances and be of high enough q factor to audibly impact upon the midrange of the instrument.
I am shifting further off the fence to say that wood [i]could be made to be [/i]important to tone. But still in a lot of cases changing it round won't do much because resonance and/or q won't be in range. So everyone's right, hurrah.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1339756455' post='1693753']
It wouldn't wobble. You're describing phase cancellation which only happens where there are two or more sources of vibration.

The tuning of the string is a property of tension, not dampening.
[/quote]

And I'd be changing the overall tension as well as damping by how I held the neck and body.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1339756882' post='1693765']
Its actually resonance that does dead spots, the structure is resonant at that frequency and takes the energy from the string. Its like that thing when people say somehting is 'more resonant' when they mean 'less resonant'.
[/quote]

i think you're saying the same thing i was trying too.

apparently the first helicopters kept flying into things, they found that certain resonances of the copter (given by the spinning of the rotas) were the same as the resonant frequencies of the human eyeball....

[Kiwi]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1339757236' post='1693772']
And I'd be changing the overall tension as well as damping by how I held the neck and body.
[/quote]
If you were putting more tension on the neck and changing the tension of the string you would be changing the pitch. If you weren't changing the string tension but just helping the instrument become stiffer, then you could expect more sustain. I doubt you could change the dampening characteristics of the materials however because you're not changing how the string contacts the instrument at fret/nut and saddle.

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1339756509' post='1693755']
I know that there are differences between species BUT I a m also sure they don't say theres a bit of oak lets build from it. would I be correct in saying that it is checked it is suitable first? But we are not talking about structural properties but the properties involved in influencing tone or timbre . How vibrations transmit through it. I would say that even a small change would have a big affect if the wood was a major influence of tone.
[/quote]
Oak instruments have been made in the past. They didn't catch on. Fodera use ash in their necks now, as well as their bodies and I believe MTD do as well.

Wood grain and structure may or may not have an influence but I suggest it's moot unless someone can tie those differences into what is heard/felt. As I said earlier, its possible for two pieces of wood from different species to have similar characteristics.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1339757987' post='1693785']
If you were putting more tension on the neck and changing the tension of the string you would be changing the pitch. If you weren't changing the string tension but just helping the instrument become stiffer, then you could expect more sustain. I doubt you could change the dampening characteristics of the materials however because you're not changing how the string contacts the instrument at fret/nut and saddle.
[/quote]

Yeah I think we've gone a little OT now, was just pointing out that if the wood was so floppy that it vibrated substantially at low frequency then it would be easy to alter its tension noticeably... probably didn't make that point clearly enough! As for the damping, Q is determined by the whole structure not just the anchor points? Sustain around resonance IS determined by damping(Q)! Stiffness changes resonant frequence, Q the amplitude peak and bandwidth

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1339757987' post='1693785']


Oak instruments have been made in the past. They didn't catch on. Fodera use ash in their necks now, as well as their bodies and I believe MTD do as well.

Wood grain and structure may or may not have an influence but I suggest it's moot unless someone can tie those differences into what is heard/felt. As I said earlier, its possible for two pieces of wood from different species to have similar characteristics.
[/quote]

one of the links someone posted earlier in the article were about different woods used in acoustic instruments and their relative merits (and lot of them were how they could be worked or not as opposed to purely what they did to tone) but a lot of the more interesting woods were concluded with "you could make a great instrument- but folk won't buy this wood"

[paul h]

I find it quite telling that there have been a large number of up and coming luthiers concentrating on creating instruments out of low grade plywood and then installing very high quality electrics.






Oh........

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='paul h' timestamp='1339764126' post='1693938']
I find it quite telling that there have been a large number of up and coming luthiers concentrating on creating instruments out of low grade plywood and then installing very high quality electrics.






Oh........
[/quote] do danelectro's lipstick pickups qualify as high quality?