General Ignorance of What Musicians Do

[JTUK]

yep...earning £50 for a gig is so easy... but not everyone can do it.

[BottomE]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1339762959' post='1693898']
I often think a lot of the general non-musician public think that what musicians do, and go through, is a lot easier and enjoyable and profitable than it actually is. Which is why I believe we musicians and our efforts are often undervalued.

But does it really matter? And is it the same for everything else that is widely consumed? Sport? Food production? Pubs and restaurants? Retailing? etc ..
[/quote]

It depends really. Certainly lots of punters don't know about the years of sweat and toil - the late nights, the drunks, loading gear up fire escapes and the other stuff that goes with playing in a band.

Does it matter? Maybe if it does matter its time to pack it in. It doesnt matter to me that punters have no idea what goes into making a good band. Last week i was playing in a castle at someones wedding. We were fed, watered and really well looked after. They wrote to us after and expressed their gratitude on top of paying us all very handsomely. I rarely get that kind of gratitude in my "normal" job.

[Ben Jamin]

I agree, I guess if punters haven't experienced any real kind of musical adventuring themselves then it's only reasonable that they'll be somewhat blissfully ignorant/maybe won't fully appreciate the all the effort and expense that goes into it. However, I have loads of fun playing and rehearsing with my band and seeing people enjoy our music, I find it really fulfilling, so I don't think they get the enjoyment part wrong

[Thurbs]

[quote name='ezbass' timestamp='1339840175' post='1695127']Bassists have been the butt of quite a few jibes from guitar players I've worked with and drummers get lots of stick too (no pun intended). This may sometimes be just in jest, but how often does this come from a "How hard can it be?" attitude?[/quote]I had a drum lesson a few weeks ago for no other reason than to answer that very question.

The answer: Very.

I would recommend it for all bass players.

[muttley]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1339840917' post='1695148']
The one that gets me is "You get paid £50 for a gig? You only play a couple of hours" yes, and the months writing, practicing, recording, promoting, travelling, soundchecking, setting up/down, networking etc etc then we're lucky to get paid at any gigs, I know I rarely do.
[/quote]

What's that story of Picasso and the napkin sketch?

edit: Here it is:-
[quote]The details change and it may be apocryphal, but it’s worth recounting the story of Picasso’s napkin. The artist was, apparently, sitting in a Paris café when a customer recognised him and pleaded with him to execute a doodle on the back of a serviette. Picasso obliged and, handing the work over, asked for $10,000. “How can you possibly ask for that much money, the picture took you less than a minute?” “On the contrary,” replied the artist. “It took me 40 years.”[/quote]
[url="http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/art/features/being-modern-conceptual-art-2370214.html"]source[/url]


Ask them what they would charge for 2 hours freelance work. How much does it cost to get a plumber in? Or go to the dentist?

Edited June 18, 2012 by muttley

[hubrad]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1339796810' post='1694737']
I think that anyone who has worked hard to become very good at their profession makes what they do look very easy. Be that carpenter, engineer, or musician.

Most people see someone doing something well and it looks easy.

How many people have said to you "I wish I could play an instrument. When I was younger I started to learn ....... but never stuck with it. "

So I think people know it's hard and takes a lot if work but think because they're enjoying listening and dancing then you must be enjoying playing, so why would you want to be paid?
[/quote]

We've got builders (good friends, also bluegrass musicians themselves) in at the mo. They make their tasks look straightforward enough, whereas 'helping' them on my day off is quite an eye-opener and something of a Generation Game moment!

On this track, the MU mag that arrived a couple of weeks age has some mention of musicians being approached to play Jubilee/Olympics gigs for free or very little where it appears that riggers, PA companies, bars etc etc are charging as normal. Obviously not to be approved of!

[ezbass]

[quote name='Thurbs' timestamp='1340021869' post='1697674']
I had a drum lesson a few weeks ago for no other reason than to answer that very question.

The answer: Very.

I would recommend it for all bass players.
[/quote]I occasionally have a bash on the drum kit at school when no one is looking, I then stand in awe at what my (and many other) drummers accomplish.

[SlapbassSteve]

As I see it, it's supply and demand. Budget guitars and basses are getting cheaper by the day and the internet is full to bursting with lessons, live footage and tabs so it's becoming easier and easier to pick up an instrument and enter 'bedroom bassist' mode. Then you got TV shows like the X Factor replacing TOTP with a 'joe public can have massive success, even if he's not massively talented or committed' attitude and, whether for better or for worse, more people then ever are playing, some incredibly talented and hardworking, some less so. I think it's great that more people are picking up such an awesome hobby, but at the same time if every kid has a half decent band and wants to gig, sooner or later Kid X'll happily take less money for the set then Kid Y if it scores him the work. Makes it considerably harder for those of us that do it for a living when some folk'll happily play three tight sets for beer money.

Of course there's a trace of irony to this as I'm only playing now because I managed to get hold of a godawful £60 Boston p-bass copy at 16, had beginner instruments been more expensive I'd never even have considered it. Turned out a pretty good investment though!

[TimR]

I'm not so sure. The general public are pretty good at recognising really bad playing/singing as we see on the X-Factor. The really bad acts get short shift. There are quite a few that can get by and these are the people that generally we as (good?) musicians are fairly quick to criticise as being quite bad.

A lot of people don't listen to live music, most listen to that sterile pop music that has had all the drums quantised and all the vocals auto tuned and sub bass added to the bass guitar. You find that function bands that spend lots of money on sounding like the CD tend to get paid more than the pub bands who, although very tight and excellent musicians, don't sound like the CD and play music instead of the latest 2chord wonder by Dizzy Feet feat iHo.

[jonnybass]

I think its easy to look at any art/craft done by someone with great skill and underestimate how difficult it is. No matter how much they enjoy it it might still be difficult and so people should be paid what they are due.

Everyone makes assumptions about this stuff though. Mr Fodera/Sadowsky/Tobias/Spector/Smith seems to put allot of effort and life experience into building instruments but how often is there a thread on "Why does a Fodera/Sadowsky/Tobias/Spector/Smith bass cost more than a Squire?"

JB

[xilddx]

[quote name='jonnybass' timestamp='1340104806' post='1699053']
I think its easy to look at any art/craft done by someone with great skill and underestimate how difficult it is. No matter how much they enjoy it it might still be difficult and so people should be paid what they are due.

Everyone makes assumptions about this stuff though. Mr Fodera/Sadowsky/Tobias/Spector/Smith seems to put allot of effort and life experience into building instruments [b]but how often is there a thread on "Why does a Fodera/Sadowsky/Tobias/Spector/Smith bass cost more than a Squire?"[/b]

JB
[/quote]

About once a month

[TimR]

[quote name='jonnybass' timestamp='1340104806' post='1699053']
... No matter how much they enjoy it it might still be difficult and so people should be paid what they are due.

...
JB
[/quote]

You often find that people who are good at what they do enjoy doing it. Or Is it that people who enjoy what they do become good at it?

[brensabre79]

I definitely think its a UK thing, having played in Europe, musicians are treated with the utmost respect. Fed, watered, accomodated and paid well. Preparations made prior to arrival etc. etc. sufficient space provided, promotion done. Similar in the US actually.

[RANT] A sharp contrast to a £50 pub gig where five musicians have to fit into a space the size of a pool table, punters complaining before you've started because there's a drum kit where the pool table was, no free drinks whatsoever, no food, and at the end of the night the landlord decides to dock you a tenner each, because he forgot to put up the posters you had designed and printed for him, so nobody knew it was happening, apart from the local pool league who went to the pub down the road because they had a pool table. [/RANT]

But I think its true that nowadays everyone is a 'musician' if they can get three notes out of a guitar, they will gig for free and the pub landlords only notice the difference on their books. As for me, I'm still learning after first picking up a bass 25 years ago.

The bottom line is if you want to make money from music you have to treat it like a business, you have to recognise that £50 for a gig is on a par with minimum wage for the night that starts at 6 loading your gear into your car and ends at 1 carrying it back into the house whilst trying not to wake the wife or the neighbours. Not to mention the equipment, insurance, preparation time, transport etc. The only way this situation will change is if everyone refuses the £50 gigs. Which they won't.

Playing in a band is like being a badly paid removal man. in the middle of the night.

[Muzz]

Another factor is something I've heard several times from punters, which is usually along the lines of "You did quite a good version of <enter song here>, I/my son/daughter can play it on Guitar Hero 100%".

Errrrrrr yeeeeah...

[4 Strings]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1340109446' post='1699185']
[RANT] A sharp contrast to a £50 pub gig where five musicians have to fit into a space the size of a pool table, punters complaining before you've started because there's a drum kit where the pool table was, no free drinks whatsoever, no food...etc

>>Not just pub gigs, very fancy gig in the middle of nowhere for the Motown band, organiser had no thought whatsoever for the band. We had nowhere to change, nowhere to actually be for the 3-4 hours wait between the insisted time to set up and get out the way and playing. We had to go to the pub for food and drink and change in the toilets. The bar staff and cleaners weren't treated this way.


"The bottom line is if you want to make money from music you have to treat it like a business... etc. The only way this situation will change is if everyone refuses the £50 gigs. Which they won't."

>>Unfortunately the bottom line is that if the pub doesn't think he'll sell more than £100 extra in beer for your £50 he won't book you.
[/quote]

Edited June 19, 2012 by 4 Strings

[brensabre79]

Well yes, the pub is a business too. What I'm saying is, these gigs will always exist, and there will always be someone prepared to play them. If you want to make a living you have to aim higher, be good enough for people to want to pay a few quid to see you! Don't go and play a £50 pub gig and complain about the money. I do these gigs all the time, but we use it as advertising for the private functions we do. Its a shop window to us, advertising with expenses covered, that is all.

[JTUK]

Always wonder what the pub has to take in order to pay £300 plus to the band...

[xilddx]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1340143260' post='1700047']
Always wonder what the pub has to take in order to pay £300 plus to the band...
[/quote]

Quite.

[TimR]

If that puzzles you:

I went to my local last night for something to eat. I was the only one there Probably in for best part of 30mins. Spent about £15. Landlord, bar girl and cook.

The Fri/Sat nights are usually subsidising the rest of the week too. I chatted to a landlord once about his takings for New Year and Christmas. He agreed they were extremely good, but that no one goes out in January and generally it didn't pick up properly until everyone had been Paid in February. So the Christmas period was subsidising the first 6 weeks of the new year.

It must be a complex way to live unless you're a tied house.

[barkin]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1340143260' post='1700047']
Always wonder what the pub has to take in order to pay £300 plus to the band...
[/quote]

Around here, they don't (pay £300 to the band). 150-200 quid, tops. I, and the current band, would do it for half that, but I don't think that makes us bad people or undermines what we do. We'd rather do it for "expenses only" than the alternative, which would be no gigs at all if we priced ourselves out of the market.

[chris_b]

[quote name='barkin' timestamp='1340147725' post='1700141']
....Around here, they don't (pay £300 to the band). 150-200 quid, tops. I, and the current band, would do it for half that, but I don't think that makes us bad people or undermines what we do. We'd rather do it for "expenses only" than the alternative, which would be no gigs at all if we priced ourselves out of the market....
[/quote]

"Expenses only"[i] is[/i] undermining what you do, and everyone else.

[JTUK]

We have just put our prices up and will have to see how it goes but it all comes down to the fact that a pub gig is a LOT of work for £60 per head for a 5 piece.
That, plus we know what others are supposed to be going out for so some places can afford to pay it...apparently.

[brensabre79]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1340144876' post='1700095']
If that puzzles you:

I went to my local last night for something to eat. I was the only one there Probably in for best part of 30mins. Spent about £15. Landlord, bar girl and cook.

The Fri/Sat nights are usually subsidising the rest of the week too. I chatted to a landlord once about his takings for New Year and Christmas. He agreed they were extremely good, but that no one goes out in January and generally it didn't pick up properly until everyone had been Paid in February. So the Christmas period was subsidising the first 6 weeks of the new year.

It must be a complex way to live unless you're a tied house.
[/quote]

But this is the point, the band are effectively 5 or 6 (or however many) employees (or freelancers) for the night just like bar staff, chef etc. Some of the bands work does not happen inside the pub but based on the earlier example (it varies from gig to gig) its 6 or 7 hours work.

£50 for 7 hours work is [b]£7.14/hour[/b]. All things being equal, Tax and NI needs to come out of this too. Not to mention, staff usually get free soft drinks and sometimes a meal - that doesn't happen in many of the pubs we play in.

The going rate for a musician playing in a function band is about £200 for 8 hours work (functions are invariably a slightly longer stint), that's [b]£25/hour[/b] - or 3 and a 1/2 times as much as a pub gig.

[lojo]

I think its fair to say there must be very few pub gig players who do it for the money,

It seems easy money to the punters, a few hours set (they dont see the equipment packdown and lug home, practice, and 100 emails you have to read to figure out what the set is), but its clearly a labour of love

IMO you do it for so long, get fed up, take a break then miss it, then cycle continues

Some pubs this way have sunday night band nights, and yes, you do wonder if they make the band fee in profit, if I ran the pub, id use the bucket method

[brensabre79]

Yes we do a few that use the bucket method, and this is where the OP comes in to play tenfold. Last one we did, the place was packed, people were dancing, we did three encores before they would let us leave the stage area (we were blocked in by the hoards). So out of about 150 people in total we were expecting about £1 on average - that's not unreasonable for 2.5 hours live entertainment is it?

Well apparently it is. We got £35 between 5 of us. And I saw one guy put a tenner in - he came up to me later and introduced himself, we talked about gear and stuff, turns out he plays in a covers band too. Enough said I think...

We won't be playing there again.

Edited June 20, 2012 by brensabre79