Who does your sound check?

[davehux]

We are a bog standard pub covers band - vox/guitar/keys/bass/drums. At our last gig, the landlady told us we were too loud and they couldn't hear the vocals.

The drummer's response was "The PA (ours) is crap - we need a bigger one!!!". Our response is "The PA is fine for the size of pubs we play. We need to balance the sound better, so that the vocals come through more"

We don't have a sound guy and the instruments & drum kit are not miked. Normally I plug in a long lead and stand in front of the stage to play and hear the sound, but it means running back and forward to tweak my amp, and it's a bit hit & miss.

Do you get the venue owner to check the levels to make sure they're happy, or do you say "This is our sound, like it or lump it!"?

All sound check tips gratefully accepted

Dave and The FRANKIE Band

[PaulWarning]

me the guitard and the singer, with his cordless mic, do it by concensous, if you can't hear the vocals turn your amps down and if the drummer is way to loud buy him some lighter sticks, noisey bastard

[davehux]

We'll get him a set of knitting needles

We are planning to put the amps on 1/3 of their usual settings, then build up to blend with the vocals. Normally it's a case of cranking the PA until it overcomes the rest or feeds back - not the best method, I know.

[JTUK]

We do it to the volume of the drums. All you need to do is be able to hear everyone in the band on stage and that will transmit outfront with the exception of the Vox..as monitors will be loud and clear.

The P.A has MORE that enough in it to get over the top of everyone but the trick is to layer your sounds so they sit along side other sounds rather than compete with the same space. All that happens when you do the latter is go for volume wars.
Get clean core sounds and the layering trick becomes easier...and soundchecks thru bigger P.A's become easier all round esp to a soundman who knows what he is doing.
You'll hear a lot about mids cutting thru..but you can't do this and be oblivious to other instruments needing that space. A mix isn't about your own sound..it is about everyones..hence, a 'mix'..!!
Also, mix/plan the songs so you know who/which instrument is carrying that particular piece at anyone time.
Everyone should have a sense of dynamics and to brush up on this put a few slow tracks into the show as most bands can't do slow numbers for love nor money, in terms of groove or dynamics. If you can't get a balance there and make them work then you really need to look closer at what you are trying to do.

[LiamPodmore]

I go out and point to things that need to go up or down usually. I have a 10m cable running from my board so i can get quite a distance away. Either that or if we have a friendly face around who we know has seen us a few times before and knows how we sound, we ask them.

Liam

[PaulWarning]

We do it to the volume of the drums. All you need to do is be able to hear everyone in the band on stage and that will transmit outfront with the exception of the Vox..as monitors will be loud and clear.

can't really agree with that I'm afraid, sometimes I think my bass is really loud and out front it's fine, sometimes the guitar seems loud but again it's ok out front, depends on room accustics

[chris_b]

[quote name='davehux' timestamp='1340110399' post='1699205']
....All sound check tips gratefully accepted....
[/quote]

Most bands play too loud. Turn down until you get a good balance.

[davehux]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1340115936' post='1699327']
Most bands play too loud. Turn down until you get a good balance.
[/quote]

Seems to be a common theme here. Just need to keep Animal under control. I see a couple of lager and Night Nurse chasers coming on for him

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='davehux' timestamp='1340117038' post='1699348']
Seems to be a common theme here. Just need to keep Animal under control. I see a couple of lager and Night Nurse chasers coming on for him
[/quote]

Most drummers feel alienated from the actual musicians (that's why they always hang out with the singer(s) ) and have to prove their worth through loudness. Give him a channel for his kick drum... then he'll feel appreciated and more part of "the sound".

[davehux]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1340117921' post='1699366']
Most drummers feel alienated from the actual musicians (that's why they always hang out with the singer(s) ) and have to prove their worth through loudness. Give him a channel for his kick drum... then he'll feel appreciated and more part of "the sound".
[/quote]

He gets 2 tracks to do his 'Keith Moon total wigout' routine - what more does he want FFS!!!

[JTUK]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1340114911' post='1699310']
We do it to the volume of the drums. All you need to do is be able to hear everyone in the band on stage and that will transmit outfront with the exception of the Vox..as monitors will be loud and clear.

can't really agree with that I'm afraid, sometimes I think my bass is really loud and out front it's fine, sometimes the guitar seems loud but again it's ok out front, depends on room accustics
[/quote]

That is fine, but I am not the one confused about how we sound.

[BigRedX]

Soundcheck? Whats that?

[51m0n]

The age old "loudest drummer/guitarist/keyboard player/bassist in the world" problem.

First point he (the problem player) should note is that the publican is right, or you wont get asked back.

Secondly when 'getting a level' for the band does the bass player determine their level by how the bass and drums 'meld' into a single instrument out front. I have lost count of the number of times I've seen average pub bands and you cant hear the kick drum for the bass "Well its not mic'ed up" they say - then you need to turn down your amp matey!

Very very very few kick drums are all that loud in a room (they have to be tuned by someone very good at it for them to compete without micing them up). So the first thing the bassist will think at this point is "Cripes I'm too quiet!") - dont let yourself get carried away, this is all about discipline, stick with the plan.

Then there is the rhythm guitarist, if he/she plays a short sharp E power chord it should be the same level as a snare hit. Try it, not a loud rimshot snare hit just a normal backbeat. Get the drummer to lay down a simple groove (you know the one) with snare on 2 & 4), get the rhythm guitarist to set their level so a chord played on two and four sits exactly right with the snare, you should hear both such as the snare has some chordal quality and the guitar has the punch of a snare. Get the bass in there on 1 and 3 with the kick drum (are we having fun yet?)

Keys are a swine, they need to be eq'ed to not stamp on to omany toes (not easy) and in level the left hand should add something to the bass without over powering, and the right hand should be similar to the rhythm guitar, but, if they play busy you need them quieter, and alos both bass and rhtyhm guitar quieter or the drums disappear again. If in doubt put the keys back a little - if they have an amp and turn it up - sack them (I'm not joking, same for all the rest of the band).

Now vocal should sit over all of this, and lead guitar should be just below the vocal (sacriledge? tough, this is all about the punters).

Be super hardcore about it for a few rehearsals, see how quiet and well mixed you can get the band to sound, learn to rock out without earthquake volumes. Anyone who cant handle it can walk.

Next time you gig the band no one will say you were too loud, everyone will say they could hear the vocal, and you will be the most professional sounding bancd on the pub scene. I've seen about three bands manage this in 20 years, (I dont think any band I've been in has quite managed to get every member to buy into this idea enough to pull it off, I got close a couple of times).

It can be done, but it is properly tricky to get right. The results are really amazing when you do it.

I really recommend using a Zoom recorder device (H2 or equivalent) and record your band normally in rehearsal then go through this process and re-record, take the recordings home, even out the volumes and send them out to the band asking them which they prefer. The volume evening process is important, just normalise the tracks to keep it simple. Everyone will prefer the one recorded second for the mix and sound quality, because it will sound better. Job done.

Edited June 19, 2012 by 51m0n

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340119400' post='1699408']
Soundcheck? Whats that?
[/quote]

It's when the bloke behind the big twiddly nob table says to you "Go on then, I'll sort you in your first number, you'll be fine"

Or

"Play your bass a bit mate, (counts to 2) that'll do, thanks"

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1340121162' post='1699453']
The age old "loudest drummer/guitarist/keyboard player/bassist in the world" problem.

First point he (the problem player) should note is that the publican is right, or you wont get asked back.

Secondly when 'getting a level' for the band does the bass player determine their level by how the bass and drums 'meld' into a single instrument out front. I have lost count of the number of times I've seen average pub bands and you cant hear the kick drum for the bass "Well its not mic'ed up" they say - then you need to turn down your amp matey!

Very very very few kick drums are all that loud in a room (they have to be tuned by someone very good at it for them to compete without micing them up). So the first thing the bassist will think at this point is "Cripes I'm too quiet!") - dont let yourself get carried away, this is all about discipline, stick with the plan.

Then there is the rhythm guitarist, if he/she plays a short sharp E power chord it should be the same level as a snare hit. Try it, not a loud rimshot snare hit just a normal backbeat. Get the drummer to lay down a simple groove (you know the one) with snare on 2 & 4), get the rhythm guitarist to set their level so a chord played on two and four sits exactly right with the snare, you should hear both such as the snare has some chordal quality and the guitar has the punch of a snare. Get the bass in there on 1 and 3 with the kick drum (are we having fun yet?)

Keys are a swine, they need to be eq'ed to not stamp on to omany toes (not easy) and in level the left hand should add something to the bass without over powering, and the right hand should be similar to the rhythm guitar, but, if they play busy you need them quieter, and alos both bass and rhtyhm guitar quieter or the drums disappear again. If in doubt put the keys back a little - if they have an amp and turn it up - sack them (I'm not joking, same for all the rest of the band).

Now vocal should sit over all of this, and lead guitar should be just below the vocal (sacriledge? tough, this is all about the punters).

Be super hardcore about it for a few rehearsals, see how quiet and well mixed you can get the band to sound, learn to rock out without earthquake volumes. Anyone who cant handle it can walk.

Next time you gig the band no one will say you were too loud, everyone will say they could hear the vocal, and you will be the most professional sounding bancd on the pub scene. I've seen about three bands manage this in 20 years, (I dont think any band I've been in has quite managed to get every member to buy into this idea enough to pull it off, I got close a couple of times).

It can be done, but it is properly tricky to get right. The results are really amazing when you do it.

I really recommend using a Zoom recorder device (H2 or equivalent) and record your band normally in rehearsal then go through this process and re-record, take the recordings home, even out the volumes and send them out to the band asking them which they prefer. The volume evening process is important, just normalise the tracks to keep it simple. Everyone will prefer the one recorded second for the mix and sound quality, because it will sound better. Job done.
[/quote]

Smashing post.

[Lozz196]

For my covers band, we mike/DI everything, but still set all volumes to that of the kit, un-miked. Basically, keep to our rehearsal levels. Then, all of the front three go and stand out front, and when we play, we [b]all[/b] agree who needs to go louder/quieter. Unfortunately, the drummer gets left out of this bit.

We`ve just found that having all instruments through the pa gives a better balance. And when I say "we", I mean by peoples comments who have said how much better we sound now, than we used to (when we didn`t do this, though they didn`t know that).

But whatever, we won`t make anything louder than the kit un-miked. Rehearsal levels are more than enough in all the pubs we play in. I`ve been in enough bands who thought it was "rock" to be so loud no-one can hear the vox, or tell what instrument is doing what, and have no wish to go back to that.

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1340117921' post='1699366']
Most drummers feel alienated from the actual musicians (that's why they always hang out with the singer(s) ) and have to prove their worth through loudness. Give him a channel for his kick drum... then he'll feel appreciated and more part of "the sound".
[/quote]

Errr ...... Drummers are as much musicians as we are.

[JTUK]

And if they aren't why are you playing with them...?

BEST ever musician I've played with is a drummer

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1340132065' post='1699760']
Errr ...... Drummers are as much musicians as we are.
[/quote]

Wow sense of humour by-pass.

[oggiesnr]

Probably half of the bands I've seen in the last couple of years have been too loud and drum and bass dominated (including a Johnny Winter's gig where you couldn't hear him for the bass) and distorted vocals. The most common comment from bands when this is pointed out to them is "It's rock mate, what do you expect?". There's one local band who are cheap but only ever booked for a pub once, a deaf man could tell which pub they're playing in by the stream of punters leaving halfway through their first number!

If you have a musical friend with decent ears take them to a gig and get them to listen and critique your sound. Can they hear every instrument? Can they hear the words? What are the audience saying/doing or leaving? From there you should be able to start working on a decent balance and sound level.

One pub band I was in used to ask after the first number "Hi folks, everything OK out there, can you hear us clearly?" or a similar line. If the landlord said "I can't hear to take orders!" we knew to dial it back!

Steve

[krysh]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1340121162' post='1699453']
The age old "loudest drummer/guitarist/keyboard player/bassist in the world" problem.

First point he (the problem player) should note is that the publican is right, or you wont get asked back.

Secondly when 'getting a level' for the band does the bass player determine their level by how the bass and drums 'meld' into a single instrument out front. I have lost count of the number of times I've seen average pub bands and you cant hear the kick drum for the bass "Well its not mic'ed up" they say - then you need to turn down your amp matey!

Very very very few kick drums are all that loud in a room (they have to be tuned by someone very good at it for them to compete without micing them up). So the first thing the bassist will think at this point is "Cripes I'm too quiet!") - dont let yourself get carried away, this is all about discipline, stick with the plan.

Then there is the rhythm guitarist, if he/she plays a short sharp E power chord it should be the same level as a snare hit. Try it, not a loud rimshot snare hit just a normal backbeat. Get the drummer to lay down a simple groove (you know the one) with snare on 2 & 4), get the rhythm guitarist to set their level so a chord played on two and four sits exactly right with the snare, you should hear both such as the snare has some chordal quality and the guitar has the punch of a snare. Get the bass in there on 1 and 3 with the kick drum (are we having fun yet?)

Keys are a swine, they need to be eq'ed to not stamp on to omany toes (not easy) and in level the left hand should add something to the bass without over powering, and the right hand should be similar to the rhythm guitar, but, if they play busy you need them quieter, and alos both bass and rhtyhm guitar quieter or the drums disappear again. If in doubt put the keys back a little - if they have an amp and turn it up - sack them (I'm not joking, same for all the rest of the band).

Now vocal should sit over all of this, and lead guitar should be just below the vocal (sacriledge? tough, this is all about the punters).

Be super hardcore about it for a few rehearsals, see how quiet and well mixed you can get the band to sound, learn to rock out without earthquake volumes. Anyone who cant handle it can walk.

Next time you gig the band no one will say you were too loud, everyone will say they could hear the vocal, and you will be the most professional sounding bancd on the pub scene. I've seen about three bands manage this in 20 years, (I dont think any band I've been in has quite managed to get every member to buy into this idea enough to pull it off, I got close a couple of times).

It can be done, but it is properly tricky to get right. The results are really amazing when you do it.

I really recommend using a Zoom recorder device (H2 or equivalent) and record your band normally in rehearsal then go through this process and re-record, take the recordings home, even out the volumes and send them out to the band asking them which they prefer. The volume evening process is important, just normalise the tracks to keep it simple. Everyone will prefer the one recorded second for the mix and sound quality, because it will sound better. Job done.
[/quote]
you nailed it.

[ben604]

We set up, mic the kit, line check, get some basic levels and then the guitarist and I stand out front. We play 2 songs, one "quiet" and one "loud", to make sure everything sits right, then tweak.

The problem is, everyone plays 10-15% harder when you start than during soundcheck because of the adrenalin!

We usually have a mix of guys from other local bands/WAGS and the general public at our gigs, I'll glare at one of each during the first song and they'll indicate if something's terribly amiss.

To be honest, the more you gig, the better you'll get. It takes us literally a verse/chorus of 2 songs to get things as good as you're likely too.

Oh, and the loud thing works both ways, we get people telling us we're too quiet, and others tell us we're too loud. Try not to pay too much attention, you can't please everyone, apart from the landlady/lord. Please them.

[davehux]

Some great advice here, guys - thanks very much.

We've got to get Saturday's gig nailed, as the landlady will then book us for the rest of the year. We're turning up extra early to get the sound right, and make sure she's happy

[Lozz196]

[quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1340174796' post='1700220']
If you have a musical friend with decent ears take them to a gig and get them to listen and critique your sound. Can they hear every instrument? Can they hear the words? What are the audience saying/doing or leaving? From there you should be able to start working on a decent balance and sound level.
Steve
[/quote]

Exactly - the amount of bands I see where I can hear the singer, but not understand a word they are singing is amazing. I`ve always thought that as soon as you can hear the words, the band sounds much more professional.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1340181088' post='1700318']
....I`ve always thought that as soon as you can hear the words, the band sounds much more professional....
[/quote]

+1

That's because a good band will sound like a band, not a bunch of individuals going through their "hot licks" catalogue.