Who does your sound check?

[charic]

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1340121272' post='1699457']
It's when the bloke behind the big twiddly nob table says to you "Go on then, I'll sort you in your first number, you'll be fine"
[/quote]

When I used to do sound a lot I was renowned for be able to get set up and soundchecked in a ridiculously short time

I think the record was 15 minutes IIRC

[Monckyman]

I do the sound for my lot, as I have the experience.
I`ve found that similar to Lozz, relying on backline won`t do.
I mic everything up and it all goes to the foh P.A.
This doesn`t make sh*t louder, in fact the opposite,because the guitarists and myself no longer rely on the backline to fill the pub/venue,so it isn`t blisteringly loud on or near the stage.
This means I can mix it properly to suit the venue and we can all hear ourselves much better.
I have our drummer on a wired in ear setup, and that makes him lay off the neanderthal drummer routine, as he can hear that kick drum nice and loud.
To ensure you get a decent idea of the mix, get a radio pack and walk the venue.
Remember that you don`t have to fill the venue with sound, just concentrate on getting the best mix for the most immediate audience in front of you.
If you try to mix for the folk at the back then the folk at the front will get a painful experience and bugger off.
I find that if people want to listen, they`ll move in, and if they want to chat they`ll move out.
If you have a decent sized rehearsal room, you can get 80% of this nailed right there, as S1mon says, by disciplining yourself with the backline and using the P.A more and more.
My band are lucky in that we have a good sized room that we set the full rig up in, with a digital desk,so I can tweak and save our mixes (I have several saved for different type venues).
This means that in the venue itself, a lot of the EQing and gain structure is already in place, and all I`m doing is a venue EQ overall and a basic level balance.
Try to give the vocalist as much headroom as possible, because ALL bands get louder as the night progresses, and you need to keep pushing the vocal up as he/she gets more tired as the night goes on.
Anyway, a load of waffle, but bottom line, turn down the backline, mic the kick drum and build around the vox.

edit: All of which advice won`t make much difference if you haven`t got a half decent P.A
What have you got?
Could you list your backline and P.A?
MM

Edited June 20, 2012 by Monckyman

[grandad]

Our setup for 60's covers band:

2 vocalists into mixer - wedge stage monitor 1 mix.

Lead & rhythmn guitars from pedal boards into mixer, no backline, wedge stage monitor 1 mix.

Backline bass. Roland drums into a KB150 & line out to the mixer. Monitor 2 mix back to channel 4, (dedicated monitor i/p) on the KB150.

1 member sets up the mix whilst we all take a turn out front & give our opinions. This seems to work reasonably well. We like to do a sound check before the punters arrive.

The best powered mixer I have tried is the Yamaha EMX 5016cf which has auto' feedback suppression & multiband compression. The later has the very noticable effect of placing the vocals clearly above the backing, I can only inadequately describe it as putting them 'clearly in front of & above' the backing.

It is important to bear in mind that the the sound on stage & what the punters hear will be very different. When each performer is comfortable with their mix they will give a better performance. The acoustics of some stages are dreadfull whilst others quite acceptable & this can effect one's performance.

The mix FOH is most important & I have learned a great deal about mixing & acoustics over the past couple years. There are some excellent websites giving lots of very good advice.

LEARNING TO LISTEN PROPERLY IS PROBABLY THE HARDEST THING.
Get out front, walk about the venue, & really try to listen. Be polite & constructive when advising others & ask for their opinions too.

This is an interesting thread, keep it going please.

[chris_b]

These days I don't play in any bands that regularly use FOH systems, but I play with 2 drummers who just mike up their bass drum.

One even has his own monitor cab for his bass drum. Neither drummer overplays or plays too loudly.

The whole rhythm section comes alive when you can easily hear the bass drum.

[ben604]

first mic through the PA, the kick drum. It's my minimum requirement!

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1340146056' post='1700116']
Wow sense of humour by-pass.
[/quote]
But you're not funny.

[51m0n]

Some great posts in this thread.

Monckyman hits the next stage up from just a vocal PA to a decent live PA rig squarely on the head.

Point to note though, even if you spend your life playing with a huge PA, getting used to playing to a very reasonable stage level will only ever help the FOH sound and your ability to hear yourself and everyone else on stage.

Also if you are reliant mainly on FOH then space permitting it can make a lot of sense to use you backline in a more sidefill setup (ie not pointing straight at the audience) and let the PA really do that job - especially useful with guitars IME.

Edited June 20, 2012 by 51m0n

[BottomE]

Nobody really does it. I don't even plug my bass in until gig time. We have an initial setup sound then tweak according to the room and the number of absorbers, i mean people.

Of course, if using FOH we do.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1340181088' post='1700318']
Exactly - the amount of bands I see where I can hear the singer, but not understand a word they are singing is amazing. I`ve always thought that as soon as you can hear the words, the band sounds much more professional.
[/quote]

Really...?? its sounds like you have some pretty awful bands then around there then.

There is a good sound and good sound, but not hearing the vox and words doesn't even qualify ..
There are planty of things that can make up amateur hour but this isn't even 1st bass...

1st rule..get vox/PA sorted... get that wrong and it is all over before you even start.

[oggiesnr]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1340217674' post='1701318']
Really...?? its sounds like you have some pretty awful bands then around there then.

There is a good sound and good sound, but not hearing the vox and words doesn't even qualify ..
There are planty of things that can make up amateur hour but this isn't even 1st bass...

1st rule..get vox/PA sorted... get that wrong and it is all over before you even start.
[/quote]

It's horribly common and I run into all over the place and not just with pub bands and not just at festivals (where there might be a partial excuse). I've paid good money to see bands where I've filled in the words from memory (Todd Rundgren, Jethro Tull, Fairport Convention, The Nice (reunion tour), Johnny Winter to name but a very few).

Steve

Edited June 20, 2012 by oggiesnr

[JTUK]

[quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1340218866' post='1701347']
It's horribly common and I run into all over the place and not just with pub bands and not just at festivals (where there might be a partial excuse). I've paid good money to see bands where I've filled in the words from memory (Todd Rundgren, Jethro Tull, Fairport Convention, The Nice (reunion tour), Johnny Winter to name but a very few).

Steve

Steve
[/quote]

My pet theme atm is that I don't want certain P.A companies or engrs doing our sound as they aren't good enough, IMO. All the gear no idea syndrome.
The best guy around is an old skool recording engr using old Celestion stuff which is 20 yrs out of date but he KNOWs his way round what he has..!!!

We would be better off using our normal P.A and doing the sound ourselves mostly which is saying something as the massive disadvantage with that is
of course, no outfront control.. but that is the way it is..!!! But our vox are always heard to the best efect, IMO..!! plus the guy can sing..which always helps..!!

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1340218866' post='1701347']
It's horribly common and I run into all over the place and not just with pub bands and not just at festivals (where there might be a partial excuse). I've paid good money to see bands where I've filled in the words from memory (Todd Rundgren, Jethro Tull, Fairport Convention, The Nice (reunion tour), Johnny Winter to name but a very few).

Steve
[/quote]
[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1340181088' post='1700318']
Exactly - the amount of bands I see where I can hear the singer, but not understand a word they are singing is amazing. I`ve always thought that as soon as you can hear the words, the band sounds much more professional.
[/quote]
This can be a trap you can fall into quite easliy doing your own sound, because you know the words it's tempting to have the vocals a bit lower than they should be, at the end of the day the melody line (usually the vocal) is the main part of the song

[pendingrequests]

In one of the cover bands I play I do all the sound and mic everything, so I usually get the brunt if something doesn't sound right.

But this is due to them being uncomfortable doing a sound-check and then wonder why everything doesn't sound right.

I do alot of live sound, but I'm not a magician at playing bass and doing sound at the same time. That would be awesome though!

My one rule I always stick to and because anytime I see a live band I want them to turn it up and that is [b]the vocals must always be the highest on the desk.[/b]

Everything else can be tweaked by the guitars and drums, well, I try to keep them low (depending on the venue and in most cases)


Thankfully, any other work I do, everyone pitches in and we do a sound check (huraahh) Even a chorus makes all the difference.

[Monckyman]

[quote name='pendingrequests' timestamp='1340361954' post='1703275']
In one of the cover bands I play I do all the sound and mic everything, so I usually get the brunt if something doesn't sound right.

But this is due to them being uncomfortable doing a sound-check and then wonder why everything doesn't sound right.


Even a chorus makes all the difference.
[/quote]

I honestly really do not get musicians who watch a fellow band member spend all that extra time setting up a P.A with care and attention for their benefit, who then can`t be arsed to do even a minimal soundcheck, because they "feel uncomfortable".
And then have the temerity to criticise the results.
dickheads all.They`d rather spend the night sounding sh*t than play a song before the show.
I had the same response from my lot when I joined and it`s really very simple.
No soundcheck, no setup. They can do it themselves while I play with my nice shiny basses.
I only had to do this once, refused utterly to attend to the PA and got repeated questions from the singer throughout the show,
"is my vocal loud enough? I can`t hear it too well..."
I just shrugged and said how am I supposed to know?
Now we do proper soundchecks.
I urge you to consider similar actions.
No nasties, just state that without a proper check you can guess the sound no better than they, so they may as well do it themselves.
Rant over

/

[Commando Jack]

There is some great stuff in here, especially 51m0ns post which is particularly relevant to my own band and I'm going to implement some of the things in this thread in my own band this Saturday.

Just wanted to suggest a sticky version of this, seeing there are so many good points.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1340217674' post='1701318']
Really...?? its sounds like you have some pretty awful bands then around there then.

There is a good sound and good sound, but not hearing the vox and words doesn't even qualify ..
There are planty of things that can make up amateur hour but this isn't even 1st bass...

1st rule..get vox/PA sorted... get that wrong and it is all over before you even start.
[/quote]

I totally agree, but sometimes it`s the singer themselves that don`t want the vox too high. Makes no sense to me, but I`ve worked with a few like that, and never understood why, considering they were all amazingly good.

[JTUK]

Our vox are always way upfront and never get drowned these days... and with decent/pokey monitoring he will not trash his voice and be struggling by the end of the gig.
In fact I'd say decent monitor cabs on the lines of EV..which are VERY directional and will cut your head off.. are just as important as anything else.

Settling for things like Wharfdale and the like for vox mons are borderline and you'll soon see the error of those ways when you come across decent wedges.

But as always, P.A for local gigs is always a weight/carry versus efficiency..but you'll be surprised how many bands scimp on that and pay for it...when/if they eventually
realise it.

[davehux]

Well, we took all your excellent advice last night. Turned down the amps, got the drummer to ease off a tad, and hey presto! Audience swinging their pants, 2 encores, and a landlady falling over herself to rebook us. Result!!

Cheers guys :-)

[51m0n]

Job well done!

Oh and a really happy band as a result too I bet. Amazing what playing to the right level for the venue will do for you as a band

[discreet]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1340530113' post='1705568']
Amazing what playing to the right level for the venue will do for you as a band [/quote]

I've been pretty damn activist in putting this forward for years, but of course there is a [i]lot [/i]of resistance from 'musicians'! Excellent post on how to achieve this, duly forwarded to our drummer and guitarist! An uphill task, but not impossible... thanks.

Edited June 24, 2012 by discreet

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1340534187' post='1705640']
I've been pretty damn activist in putting this forward for years, but of course there is a [i]lot [/i]of resistance from 'musicians'! ...
[/quote]

Even the drummers?

Booya! Thang-u very much I'm here all week. Merchandise in the foyer.

[discreet]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1340540884' post='1705763']
Even the drummers?[/quote]

Well, I did say 'musicians'.

[pendingrequests]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1340363370' post='1703302']
I honestly really do not get musicians who watch a fellow band member spend all that extra time setting up a P.A with care and attention for their benefit, who then can`t be arsed to do even a minimal soundcheck, because they "feel uncomfortable".
And then have the temerity to criticise the results.
dickheads all.They`d rather spend the night sounding sh*t than play a song before the show.
I had the same response from my lot when I joined and it`s really very simple.
No soundcheck, no setup. They can do it themselves while I play with my nice shiny basses.
I only had to do this once, refused utterly to attend to the PA and got repeated questions from the singer throughout the show,
"is my vocal loud enough? I can`t hear it too well..."
I just shrugged and said how am I supposed to know?
Now we do proper soundchecks.
I urge you to consider similar actions.
No nasties, just state that without a proper check you can guess the sound no better than they, so they may as well do it themselves.
Rant over

/
[/quote]

Haha I appreciate your rant

But yes as of late, when they are 'too afraid' then look at me and say 'Doesn't sound right'. I just shrug the shoulders, and wait to play the next song.

Not gonna take the brunt of it all anymore

[discreet]

[b]Who does your sound check?[/b]

Judging by the results - Helen Keller.