Ben Jamin Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 This article popped on my Facebook newsfeed from both Reverend Guitars and Dawsons Music and I thought I'd post it here for discussion and such because it hit me quite hard. I'm not an obsessive downloader/music streamer but I've used both services before (especially Spotify/Grooveshark for learning new songs/jamming along). [url="http://thetrichordist.wordpress.com/2012/06/18/letter-to-emily-white-at-npr-all-songs-considered/"]HERE[/url] (It's quite long) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaydentaku Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 very long Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 f*** me, I couldn't get through it all, only about a third. The geezer needs to learn what BREVITY means if he wants to get his message across. What I read was interesting though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wil Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Tl;dr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I disagreed with a lot of it. I'm afraid that the "downloading is stealing" camp repeatedly shoot themselves in the foot by using arguments that are flawed at best and totally bogus at worst. The whole thing is a massive grey area---there are just as many positive reasons to infringe on copyright as there are negative reasons not to---and the attempts by either side to paint it as a black/white matter just piss me off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruiner Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340129167' post='1699677'] I'm afraid that the "downloading is stealing" camp repeatedly shoot themselves in the foot by using arguments that are flawed at best and totally bogus at worst. [/quote] Surely that's the bottom line though? If you're illegally downloading copyrighted material, then you're stealing, however you dress it up. That's pretty black and white to me Edited June 19, 2012 by Ruiner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Ruiner' timestamp='1340129501' post='1699687'] Surely that's the bottom line though? If you're illegally downloading copyrighted material, then you're stealing, however you dress it up. That's pretty black and white to me [/quote] No, its not stealing. Its copyright infringement. Stealing and copyright infringement are not the same thing. They're both illegal but they are different. Choosing to begin their argument from a point which is demonstrably wrong just makes people look ignorant and uninformed. There are many scenarios in which illegal downloads make artists money that they would not otherwise have made. This alone makes it impossible to paint illegal downloads as purely a black/white issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Wil' timestamp='1340128689' post='1699662'] Tl;dr. [/quote] Your loss. Every musician should read it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkG3 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) I didn't read all of it, but my view is that downloading music illegally is stealing, say I illegally downloaded one full album, that to me is stealing that album, walking into a cd shop and picking up the same album and walking out with it without paying is stealing. Again IMO Edited June 19, 2012 by S9_S12_Bass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohn Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I'm afraid I live in the downloading copyrighted stuff from the internet without paying is Malum Prohibitum rather than Malum in Se Camp. It's not stealing. It does not permanently deprive anybody of anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Legally speaking, how can it be stealing if there is no 'object' missing at the end? That's not to say whether it's right or wrong but surely the law DOES distinguish between copyright infringement through illegal duplication and theft? If you take an album from a shop they lose the physical copy of the album that they've already paid for. If you illegally download, they may or may not lose a sale but they still retain the physical object. Information and material goods are not the same thing even if taking either can have negative consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreek Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) I don't have any downloaded music or music I didn't pay for - not because I'm self righteous but because I haven't got a clue how to download stuff.. However I stand in the "downloading is stealing" camp - just because the thing I got for nothing doesn't exist in the physical form (i.e. only electronically) doesn't mean that I didn't deprive anybody (normally the artist) of something physical (i.e. money). It's freeloading however you look at it.. As musicians I think we should all be making a stand against downloading - after all why should somebody else make money from our performances/ products (after all that's what music is) if we don't?? If you played a (paid) gig and there was a huge crowd but nobody paid at the door/gate wouldn't you be peeved? They didn't steal anything - they just heard your music for nothing but it didn't cost anybody anything..did it?? Err..your time, your outlay as a musician, travel to and from said gig, cost of practicing and rehearsal, cost of studio time, cost of the overheads for the gig (roadies, electricity, promotion,etc)... IMHO if you don't pay then you are a thief.. Edited June 19, 2012 by TheGreek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='S9_S12_Bass' timestamp='1340130305' post='1699715'] I didn't read all of it, but my view is that downloading music illegally is stealing, say I illegally downloaded one full album, that to me is stealing that album, walking into a cd shop and picking up the same album and walking out with it without paying is stealing. Again IMO [/quote] [i]Legally [/i]they are totally different scenarios. If I walk into the Louvre, take a really, really good photo of the Mona Lisa, and then print it out and send it to my mum then have I stolen anything? Is my mum a thief? Speaking as someone who owns a *lot* of music (all bought and paid for) and as a musician who has music out there for sale, it really pisses me off when people try and claim that all downloading is bad and completely and utterly immoral. Many moons ago, someone gave me a CDR of a band named Bis. It contained their first album. I loved it. Since then I have bought every single record they've ever released---cd and LP---and been to see them a half dozen times (again next month, hooray ). I'm probably one of the best fans they could have. But it would never have happened if someone hadn't infringed their copyright and given me a copy all those years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 If it was black and white then it would all be a lot simpler, but it isn't. It's not stealing because you don't deprive the owner of any goods. And if you wouldn't buy the music anyway (which would be the case, I'd bet, with the vast majority of downloaded music) then you're not even depriving the owner of a sale. The internet has been a game changer and the music business is struggling to cope with the change, but the genie is out of the bottle and it ain't going back anytime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Anyone remember the 'Home Taping is Killing Music' campaign? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkG3 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340131729' post='1699749'] [i]Legally [/i]they are totally different scenarios. If I walk into the Louvre, take a really, really good photo of the Mona Lisa, and then print it out and send it to my mum then have I stolen anything? Is my mum a thief? Speaking as someone who owns a *lot* of music (all bought and paid for) and as a musician who has music out there for sale, it really pisses me off when people try and claim that all downloading is bad and completely and utterly immoral. Many moons ago, someone gave me a CDR of a band named Bis. It contained their first album. I loved it. Since then I have bought every single record they've ever released---cd and LP---and been to see them a half dozen times (again next month, hooray ). I'm probably one of the best fans they could have. But it would never have happened if someone hadn't infringed their copyright and given me a copy all those years ago. [/quote] I do agree with you, I think music sharing between friends and actively illegally downloading music has its differences. I think in your case as say you got given a copy which led you onto buying all their songs which IMO is ok and I've done the same. But I think say you got given that copy then thought I'm not buying any of their songs I'll just download it all for free - to me that's the difference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 It's a sad day when musicians no longer see the value of music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340131729' post='1699749'] [i]Legally [/i]they are totally different scenarios. [b]If I walk into the Louvre, take a really, really good photo of the Mona Lisa, and then print it out and send it to my mum then have I stolen anything? Is my mum a thief?[/b] Speaking as someone who owns a *lot* of music (all bought and paid for) and as a musician who has music out there for sale, it really pisses me off when people try and claim that all downloading is bad and completely and utterly immoral. Many moons ago, someone gave me a CDR of a band named Bis. It contained their first album. I loved it. Since then I have bought every single record they've ever released---cd and LP---and been to see them a half dozen times (again next month, hooray ). I'm probably one of the best fans they could have. But it would never have happened if someone hadn't infringed their copyright and given me a copy all those years ago. [/quote] Epic Fail and the ol' Jesus Facepalm on the analogy mate. Terrible. Rubbish. Risible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruiner Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340134719' post='1699819'] It's a sad day when musicians no longer see the value of music. [/quote] This. Completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340134719' post='1699819'] It's a sad day when musicians no longer see the value of music. [/quote] Thing is, the music industry itself has devalued music. It wasn't so long ago that music CDs (and DVDs) were being given away free with sunday papers. Found this list - all big name artists, albeit not exactly cutting edge - but this is The Mail On Sunday http://www.discogs.com/label/The%20Mail%20On%20Sunday And this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2007/jun/29/business.pop So, if this sort of stuff can be given away with [s]toilet[/s] a sunday paper, what sort of message does that give out? Same with DVDs http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/4330826.stm http://www.free-uk-shares.co.uk/free-newspaper-dvd.html Kids are growing up in an environment where it's looking like a a mugs game to actually pay for any media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruiner Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) I always feel like people who argue that most people who download your album illegally wouldn't have bought it anyway, miss the point somewhat. This blog from the frontman of 'Future of the Left' (written back in 2009) is a great read from someone directly affected by illegal downloads: [url="http://www.myspace.com/futureoftheleft/blog/485944356"]http://www.myspace.c.../blog/485944356[/url] [i]"[color=#262626][font=arial][size=3]it feels that getting annoyed about [/size][/font][/color][/i][i][color=#262626][font=arial][size=3]downloading in this valueless modern age is like taking issue with [/size][/font][/color][/i][i][color=#262626][font=arial][size=3]water for being wet or night for gradually turning into day because [/size][/font][/color][/i][i][color=#262626][font=arial][size=3]ultimately the entitlement that most people feel for free music [/size][/font][/color][/i][i][color=#262626][font=arial][size=3]completely overshadows any moral or legal issues and conflicts that [/size][/font][/color][/i][i][color=#262626][font=arial][size=3]may arise in the hearts and minds of better people, people who [/size][/font][/color][/i][i][color=#262626][font=arial][size=3]understand that actions, on both an individual and group level, have[/size][/font][/color][/i] [i][color=#262626][font=arial][size=3]consequences far beyond that moment of instant gratification."[/size][/font][/color][/i] Edited June 19, 2012 by Ruiner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 That article rather makes my point - indeed it acknowledges the problem of this "valueless age". All that hard work, yet someone thought it was a good idea to upload the album before it was even officially released. But moaning about it will change nothing - what we need are some solutions to stop it. Trouble is, there don't seem to be any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Interestingly, while the music industry tries to prevent copyright theft, there's an active movement in the software world to actively promote 'open source' software and to freely licence such creative works. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft Perhaps it's because the music business is all about money and profit, whereas the open source software movement is a bit more idealistic: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/pragmatic.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340134719' post='1699819'] It's a sad day when musicians no longer see the value of music. [/quote] Its nothing to do with not seeing the value of music. I love music. I spend a small fortune on music, and gigs, and music merchandise. I will always continue to support musicians I love and music I love. I haven't downloaded anything illegally in years. But that doesn't mean that I'm just going to swallow the lie that illegal downloading is evil and wrong in every single way. The music "industry" has to face up to the reality that their "traditional" (I use the inverted commas because recorded music is still a relatively new invention) business model doesn't work in an internet world. You can either embrace new technology and new ways of doing things or you can stick your fingers in your ears and go "la la la la la la la thieves thieves thieves la la la la la la la" and wonder where all your money went. If anything, the internet is forcing a return to the pre-recording days when the "value" in music was in live performance. A concert is something that can't be duplicated or downloaded. The live experience cannot be replicated. We should all embrace that and do as much as possible to ensure that everytime we do a gig we make it as good as possible so that people see the "value" in what we do and make them want to come back again and again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruiner Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1340138537' post='1699896'] But moaning about it will change nothing - what we need are some solutions to stop it. Trouble is, there don't seem to be any. [/quote] Yeah I agree. The initial record industry response of copy protection and DRM was reactionary and no real solution. I honestly don't think there's any way back now though. I think bands need to just adapt and evolve as best they can in order to try and earn a living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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