phil.i.stein Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340140014' post='1699934'] Its nothing to do with not seeing the value of music. I love music. I spend a small fortune on music, and gigs, and music merchandise. I will always continue to support musicians I love and music I love. I haven't downloaded anything illegally in years. But that doesn't mean that I'm just going to swallow the lie that illegal downloading is evil and wrong in every single way. The music "industry" has to face up to the reality that their "traditional" (I use the inverted commas because recorded music is still a relatively new invention) business model doesn't work in an internet world. You can either embrace new technology and new ways of doing things or you can stick your fingers in your ears and go "la la la la la la la thieves thieves thieves la la la la la la la" and wonder where all your money went. If anything, the internet is forcing a return to the pre-recording days when the "value" in music was in live performance. A concert is something that can't be duplicated or downloaded. The live experience cannot be replicated. We should all embrace that and do as much as possible to ensure that everytime we do a gig we make it as good as possible so that people see the "value" in what we do and make them want to come back again and again. [/quote] big plus 1 to all of this ! fact is, downloading, legal or illegal, ends up 'spreading the word'. if someone likes it, they'll end up buying it. the only people who really protest against it are the big boys. and, SO WHAT ? Edited June 19, 2012 by phil.i.stein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340140014' post='1699934'] Its nothing to do with not seeing the value of music. I love music. I spend a small fortune on music, and gigs, and music merchandise. I will always continue to support musicians I love and music I love. I haven't downloaded anything illegally in years. But that doesn't mean that I'm just going to swallow the lie that illegal downloading is evil and wrong in every single way. The music "industry" has to face up to the reality that their "traditional" (I use the inverted commas because recorded music is still a relatively new invention) business model doesn't work in an internet world. You can either embrace new technology and new ways of doing things or you can stick your fingers in your ears and go "la la la la la la la thieves thieves thieves la la la la la la la" and wonder where all your money went. If anything, the internet is forcing a return to the pre-recording days when the "value" in music was in live performance. A concert is something that can't be duplicated or downloaded. The live experience cannot be replicated. We should all embrace that and do as much as possible to ensure that everytime we do a gig we make it as good as possible so that people see the "value" in what we do and make them want to come back again and again. [/quote] We live in a capitalist world system, hence music is a product, regardless of how it is presented whether that be recorded or live. Copyright was developed as an extension of property rights, without which they cannot be traded and ergo you wouldn't have capitalism. I am then, as an old unreconstructed leftie truly overjoyed to see so many on Basschat wanting to bring down the capitalist world order. I sincerely hope that none of you start grumbling if say someone starts 'not paying' for the goods or service that generates your income. After all if lots of people started following suite what could be done about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Regardless what illegal downloading gets called, it's still illegal. There are many bands (famous ones too) that allow you to download their songs for free & GnR encouraged "copying"CDs when they released Use Your Illusions I & II. In an interview & asked why they wasn't releasing it as a double album the response was along the lines of "So someone can buy one & their friend can buy the other & give each other a copy". I don't illegally download, I just listen to things on tinterweb (You choob, Spottyfy, Last Effem, etc). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1340141957' post='1700005'] We live in a capitalist world system, hence music is a product, regardless of how it is presented whether that be recorded or live. Copyright was developed as an extension of property rights, without which they cannot be traded and ergo you wouldn't have capitalism. I am then, as an old unreconstructed leftie truly overjoyed to see so many on Basschat wanting to bring down the capitalist world order. I sincerely hope that none of you start grumbling if say someone starts 'not paying' for the goods or service that generates your income. After all if lots of people started following suite what could be done about it? [/quote] exactly ! downloading is the way to 'free advertising', rather than 'stealing'. networks, be it radio, or tv have found it too easy to join hands with major labels to sell multiple units, rather than multiple choices. long live free choice. Edited June 19, 2012 by phil.i.stein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jamin Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Wow I only went out for a rehearsal! I agree that illegal downloading may help artists get out there. But honestly, I have never streamed/downloaded a song, liked it, then bought the album. I have however streamed/downloaded a song and then streamed/downloaded the rest of the tracks from the same site. Convenience. And this is what I imagine most people do (as is supported by the statistics of sales etc etc). 'Spreading the word' seems a bit of a cop-out really to me really. If I steal a bass from a guitar factory, I'll just tell the Police that I was planning to play it at my gigs and at some point a couple of people might think 'Hey, cool bass' and buy one. The bottom line is the vast majority of illegal downloads hinder, not help, artists. The internet and all it's wonders seems to have given us a sense of entitlement/a right to free stuff, when in-fact we should never be entitled to anything for free. Why should we? I also don't see why musicians 'need to change' if they're not the offending party. Google etc needs a smack, downloaders (like myself) need to get a wider sense of responsibility as individuals and en masse, and these sites need to come down and people need to save a little longer and thus appreciate their music and the hard work that went into it more. It's just getting to that point! I guarantee I'll probably go on Spotify at some point by the end of the week... Yeah and sorry that article was looooong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Meant to say, I do get a few "copied" CD's passed to me by other musicians, but that encourages me to buy more if I like who I get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jamin Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='phil.i.stein' timestamp='1340142494' post='1700018'] long live free choice. [/quote] By free choice d'you mean, a right to choose if you pay for something or not, therefore [i]a right to have something of value for free[/i]? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 and to add, i love internet radio. the choice to listen to any station from anywhere in the world is a mind-blowing concept. the more choice, the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarky Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I am a late 40-something as a starting point, from before the interweb (although not before cassettes) and I think there is a generational thing here with a sense of entitlement having become the norm. I simply don't understand why making music should be treated differently to other professions in terms of protection. Sure if you choose to make your music freely available then fine, thats your choice (and as pointed out above there are some logical, marketing-type reasons for doing so). But to have it done against your will is a different kettle of fish. There should be a choice on the part of the artist in my view. And the argument that 'the horse has already bolted' does not make it right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1340142646' post='1700027'] By free choice d'you mean, a right to choose if you pay for something or not, therefore [i]a right to have something of value for free[/i]? [/quote] not as such, i meant that for a long time, the major broadcasters were hand-in-hand with the major labels, and so the big players got played and many others struggled for recognition. the field is slightly more 'even' now. i still miss John Peel. Edited June 19, 2012 by phil.i.stein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jamin Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Clarky' timestamp='1340142898' post='1700035'] I think there is a generational thing here with a sense of entitlement having become the norm. I simply don't understand why making music should be treated differently to other professions in terms of protection. Sure if you choose to make your music freely available then fine, thats your choice (and as pointed out above there are some logical, marketing-type reasons for doing so). But to have it done against your will is a different kettle of fish. There should be a choice on the part of the artist in my view. And the argument that 'the horse has already bolted' does not make it right [/quote] This! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) [quote name='phil.i.stein' timestamp='1340142494' post='1700018'] exactly ! downloading is the way to 'free advertising', rather than 'stealing'. networks, be it radio, or tv have found it too easy to join hands with major labels to sell multiple units, rather than multiple choices. long live free choice. [/quote] I was being sarcastic. If no one's getting paid it won't happen. Then all we'll have is a vast array of back catalogues to trawl through, yawn. As for this 'getting back to the values of the live performance day', what drivel. The only artists making money out of live music are the ones who managed to make money out of recorded music. Add into that the fact that not a month, neigh week, goes past on here without someone highlighting venues shutting down and struggling to get paid for gigs, where does that leave making money from performances? Edited June 19, 2012 by Marvin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jamin Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='phil.i.stein' timestamp='1340142955' post='1700037'] the field is more 'even' now. [/quote] Not really, I don't think. IMO people still get the same music, as advertised on the radio, in clubs, on MTV, Vevo. Just for free. As an 18 year old who listens to a lot of music via streaming etc. I have never come across a new unsigned artist on these sites - music available on the frequented sites for streaming/downloading is always popular to an extent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1340143020' post='1700042'] I was being sarcastic. If no one's getting paid it won't happen. Then all we'll have is a vast array of back catalogues to trawl through, yawn. As for this 'getting back to the values of the live performance day', what drivel. The only artists making money out of live music are the ones who managed to make money out of recorded music. Add into that the fact that not a month, neigh week, goes past on here without someone highlighting venues shutting down and struggling to get paid for gigs, where does that leave making money from performances? [/quote] damn internet sarcasm, it never works for me ! as for the 'live' thing, well, that's nothing to do with just music. check out how many local pubs disappear every day. 'super' - market forces 'ennit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnus x-1 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 when I saw the title, I wondered if the thread was about the Uriah Heep classic, lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1340143364' post='1700055'] Not really, I don't think. IMO people still get the same music, as advertised on the radio, in clubs, on MTV, Vevo. Just for free. As an 18 year old who listens to a lot of music via streaming etc. [b]I have never come across a new unsigned artist on these sites [/b]- music available on the frequented sites for streaming/downloading is always popular to an extent. [/quote] i have, from several BC'ers, here's one BC'er in motion : [b][url="http://alphamaleteaparty.bandcamp.com/"]http://alphamaleteaparty.bandcamp.com/[/url][/b] the 'What are you listening to' thread also yields a few beauties, you just have to find the time. Edited June 19, 2012 by phil.i.stein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jamin Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='phil.i.stein' timestamp='1340143786' post='1700069'] i have, from several BC'ers, here's one BC'er in motion : [b][url="http://alphamaleteaparty.bandcamp.com/"]http://alphamaleteaparty.bandcamp.com/[/url][/b] the 'What are you listening to thread' also yields a few beauties, you just have to find the time. [/quote] Oh I've come across a couple of new artists on Basschat, but there's nowt wrong with talking about someone's music and linking to their Bandcamp. I meant the streaming/download sites such as Deezer, Grooveshark, Spotify etc don't do anything at all to get new artists out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jamin Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Cygnus x-1' timestamp='1340143493' post='1700062'] when I saw the title, I wondered if the thread was about the Uriah Heep classic, lol [/quote] It is, you didn't read to the end of the article did you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1340142525' post='1700020'] The bottom line is the [b]vast majority[/b] of illegal downloads hinder, not help, artists. [/quote] To be blunt, I don't believe that. For instance I've seen reports that suggest the same people who download the most films are also the same people who buy the most DVDs. [quote]I also don't see why musicians 'need to change' if they're not the offending party. Google etc needs a smack, downloaders (like myself) need to get a wider sense of responsibility as individuals and en masse, and these sites need to come down and people need to save a little longer and thus appreciate their music and the hard work that went into it more. [/quote] Businesses need to change and evolve, or they die. The music business is no different. I'm not saying that illegal downloading is 100% a good thing. In many, many ways its a bad thing. I don't do it myself. But---and its a big, fat, Jennifer Lopez sized but---neither is it 100% a bad thing. Its a grey area filled with strong opinions and very reasonable points on both sides and all I'm really trying to say is that people who try and paint everything as either black or white are just muppets who do nothing to help their argument. In my opinion the industry needs to forget about the saddoes who have 11,000 illegal mp3s on their hard drive. Those people aren't your customers. They're never going to pay for your product. Trying to stop them is just a waste of time, effort, and money. The industry should instead concentrate on people who [i]are[/i] prepared to support your artists financially, and find the best way to provide them with a product and a business model that works for everybody. There are plenty people out there---I'm one of them---who are prepared to pay for music and gigs. You just need to find the right way to sell to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1340144221' post='1700074'] Oh I've come across a couple of new artists on Basschat, but there's nowt wrong with talking about someone's music and linking to their Bandcamp. I meant the streaming/download sites such as Deezer, Grooveshark, Spotify etc don't do anything at all to get new artists out there. [/quote] don't use them myself, so i can't comment on them. but, before i'm out of here, (for reasons of needing a 'kip'), music takes research, rather than spoonfeeding, and this is what the web is all about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1340143020' post='1700042'] As for this 'getting back to the values of the live performance day', what drivel. The only artists making money out of live music are the ones who managed to make money out of recorded music. Add into that the fact that not a month, neigh week, goes past on here without someone highlighting venues shutting down and struggling to get paid for gigs, where does that leave making money from performances? [/quote] And of course no musicians hold any responsibility for that. There are no bands out there who'll willingly sign up for pay-to-play, or play for free week after week after week and devalue their own product as a result. Its all the fault of those nasty downloaders that nobody gets paid for gigs, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mep Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I didn't read all of it but what I did was good. I stopped using Limewire years ago but will continue with my Spotify use for a while yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340144338' post='1700079'] To be blunt, I don't believe that. For instance I've seen reports that suggest the same people who download the most films are also the same people who buy the most DVDs. Businesses need to change and evolve, or they die. The music business is no different. I'm not saying that illegal downloading is 100% a good thing. In many, many ways its a bad thing. I don't do it myself. But---and its a big, fat, Jennifer Lopez sized but---neither is it 100% a bad thing. Its a grey area filled with strong opinions and very reasonable points on both sides and all I'm really trying to say is that people who try and paint everything as either black or white are just muppets who do nothing to help their argument. In my opinion the industry needs to forget about the saddoes who have 11,000 illegal mp3s on their hard drive. Those people aren't your customers. They're never going to pay for your product. Trying to stop them is just a waste of time, effort, and money. The industry should instead concentrate on people who [i]are[/i] prepared to support your artists financially, and find the best way to provide them with a product and a business model that works for everybody. There are plenty people out there---I'm one of them---who are prepared to pay for music and gigs. [b]You just need to find the right way to sell to them.[/b] [/quote] And there's your fundamental problem of your argument. No one has ever got the answer to what the music industry should change to. For the people who are going to buy music they'll buy a download, buy a physical CD. For artists and the music industry there's no need to change for the people who are prepared to pay for music. The problem comes in that that group of people is getting smaller. Many people have stopped buying music and only download and don't pay. That's the crux of the problem, the increasing number of people who will not and do not pay for music, to which no one seems to have an answer to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340144488' post='1700086'] And of course no musicians hold any responsibility for that. There are no bands out there who'll willingly sign up for pay-to-play, or play for free week after week after week and devalue their own product as a result. Its all the fault of those nasty downloaders that nobody gets paid for gigs, right? [/quote] You missed the point entirely. The argument is made that musicians rather than making music from recordings make an income from live performance. This is not possible if venues are shutting down or people aren't getting paid. Although perhaps it being the same ethos of not wanting to pay for anything is running through both. Even the notion that festivals would generate incomes is a non-starter, with several big festivals not going ahead last year due to poor ticket sales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) Marvin, re-quoting myself, not being vain or 'owt : "that's nothing to do with just music. check out how many local pubs disappear every day. 'super' - market forces 'ennit" i guess, as a capatalist, you'll just have to accept market forces... Edited June 19, 2012 by phil.i.stein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.