uncle psychosis Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 [quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1340176844' post='1700238'] It does. It showed there are a number of outlets for legally downloading and streaming things. A lack of patience because you really want to watch a TV show isn't a justification at all. [/quote] We're just going to have to agree to disagree. If people want to buy your product then making it difficult for them to do so is just lunacy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I've hired some guff from the video shop. Infact, I've taken 3 films for £10 & gotten a load of rubbish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 [quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1340177332' post='1700248'] It's not an inferior product at all though - it's a few commercials. [/quote] Its five minutes of commericals. That you can't skip. Every time you want to watch the film that you've legally paid for. And a big fat anti-piracy advert that as good as calls you a criminal (even though you've paid for their product). It is most definitely an inferior product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 uncle psychosis, did you actually read the article in the OP all the way through? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jamin Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340177362' post='1700249'] We're just going to have to agree to disagree. If people want to buy your product then making it difficult for them to do so is just lunacy. [/quote] Let's do that then, we're not getting anywhere From my point of view though, buying the product is perfectly easy - it's just pirating will always be easier - that's the appeal of pirating. [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340177519' post='1700255'] Its five minutes of commericals. That you can't skip. Every time you want to watch the film that you've legally paid for. And a big fat anti-piracy advert that as good as calls you a criminal (even though you've paid for their product). It is most definitely an inferior product. [/quote] Gosh, five minutes of my life - gone. That's like one TV advert break or something. The anti-piracy campaign thanks you for buying legally, it doesn't call you a criminal. The legal product (film itself) is always going to be at least of the same quality and in the majority of cases higher quality than the pirate copy because, well, it hasn't been copied/compressed etc. It also has re-sale value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomBassmonkey Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I guess there's a lot of people that don't make money from their music. That's ok, but I wonder how you'd feel if people expected you to do your jobs for free? Downloads in moderation are ok, as has been mentioned, lots of stuff that's downloaded wouldn't have been bought anyway and for smallish bands, it can be ok to get their name around. I've laughed with bandmates at gigs when someone says "I've got no money on me, but I'll illegally download it!" There's some pictures going around on facebook at the moment along the lines of "Why is our local music scene dying" and "Why do I have to pay to get into gigs" with the reply "Tell me about all the merch you've bought recently" and "Why should musician's get food on their plates when I have to pay a few pounds entry" and it's true. Entry fee is usually about the price of a pint and a CD costs about 3 pints for an album (usually small bands just have EPs which are much cheaper).. If you want to support music, buy stuff. Not supporting bands is damaging to everyone, when people can't afford to play gigs because of expenses and can't pay for more recordings because their CDs are being pirated, it's the fans that lose out as much as the bands. It's not the band's responsibility to give you free stuff. Frankly I'm a bit disappointed that musicians can have the veiw that piracy is ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Fer cryin' out loud... If someone has created something, quite possibily at significant expense, and they specifically ask you to pay to watch / listen to it, then just bliddy well pay for it! Don't say it's difficult to do so, because it isn't. You're making excuses. My six-year-old daughter can do it. What a bunch of tight-arsed chancers. I appreciate that it's also easy to download this stuff illegally. Crack on if you must, don't whinge and whine when the copyright owners try and stop you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethfriend Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Also getting something without paying is not the definition of stealing. If somebody avoids tax they are getting something without paying, if you then go on this very forum and say these people are thieves it is pointed out that it is merely tax avoidance, stop being a communist and love the bankers. strangely it's some of the same ones who insist downloading is stealing that fail to make the same distinction with tax avoidance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec 'Aleb' Mills Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340177519' post='1700255'] Its five minutes of commericals. That you can't skip. Every time you want to watch the film that you've legally paid for. And a big fat anti-piracy advert that as good as calls you a criminal (even though you've paid for their product). It is most definitely an inferior product. [/quote] Surely you must realise that this is also reactionary to the fact that piracy is a growing and very commonplace activity? An example, its not just the muic industry being limited to piracy. In the game industry, last year a game called 'Cyrisis 2' had an estimated 4 million unregistered copies on the multiplayer servers after just four months of the game being released. Within that same period, they had only sold 3 million copies. This was one of the worst performances for a game. In these scenarios, it shows that 'people' will not pay for things if they can get away with it. And the arguement of someone illegally downloading an album/film/game who wouldn't have bought it otherwise is beside the point? Why should they being able to access these things just because its there. Buying music is much like buying clothes, or shoes or even a guitar, regardless of how you look at it. Its a product. They won't buy it if they can't afford it. But with music, there is a way around paying for it, so they won't. Its simple in the eyes of my generation. They know the things they want to spend they're money on. And music isn't one of them, for the majority of people. (uncle psychosis sorry this isn't all aimed at you ) Edited June 20, 2012 by Alec 'Aleb' Mills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Way to long to get through in one sitting. Cant agree that its stealing, not if its being handed to you (or uploaded by someone else), I think we all have to make a judgement call on weather we feel comfortable doing this or not. Thats the only way its ever going to stop. I do it, ill admit that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340178282' post='1700267'] uncle psychosis, did you actually read the article in the OP all the way through? [/quote] Yes. And somehow I've ended up being the poster boy for illegal downloads despite acquiring all of my music and films by paying for them This is the problem with the internet---all I said initially was "downloading isn't necessarily always a bad thing" and somehow people have turned that into me saying its ok to take whatever you want for free [quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1340178287' post='1700268'] Gosh, five minutes of my life - gone. That's like one TV advert break or something. The anti-piracy campaign thanks you for buying legally, it doesn't call you a criminal. [/quote] There's a few different ones. The one that says "thank you for buying this product" is good. I approve of that one. The one I'm specifically thinking of is the obnoxious "you wouldn't steal a car....you wouldn't steal a purse... blah blah blah" one that goes on and on. You're right, I wouldn't steal a car and I didn't steal this DVD so f**k off and let me watch the film please! [quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1340178315' post='1700270'] If you want to support music, buy stuff. Not supporting bands is damaging to everyone, when people can't afford to play gigs because of expenses and can't pay for more recordings because their CDs are being pirated, it's the fans that lose out as much as the bands. It's not the band's responsibility to give you free stuff. Frankly I'm a bit disappointed that musicians can have the veiw that piracy is ok. [/quote] I assume this is aimed at me. I do support bands (more than almost anyone else I know). I don't think "piracy is ok".What I think is: "[b]sometimes[/b] piracy can actually be a good thing for musicians. [b]SOMETIMES[/b]." [quote name='Alec 'Aleb' Mills' timestamp='1340179563' post='1700287'] An example, its not just the muic industry being limited to piracy. In the game industry, last year a game called 'Cyrisis 2' had an estimated 4 million unregistered copies on the multiplayer servers after just four months of the game being released. Within that same period, they had only sold 3 million copies. This was one of the worst performances for a game. In these scenarios, it shows that 'people' will not pay for things if they can get away with it.[/quote] Someone at Crytek (the people who made Crysis 2) leaked it before it was launched. If you've got a game that millions of teenage boys want to play thats suddenly available to download but not available legally [i]anywhere[/i] then its hardly surprising it was downloaded that many times. [b]I'm not saying that its a good thing[/b], just that you can understand how it happened. Teenagers are hardly renowned for their patience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twigman Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 [quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1340177126' post='1700242'] The only reason my band is still going today is because of illegal downloading and file sharing. The existence of the internet and this form of distribution has revived my band. Our original record company went bust in 1993, we released some stuff ourselves in 2002 but the back catalogue was no longer officially available. Interest grew due to file sharing, so much so that we reformed and our back catalogue was rereleased from 2009 and sells out of every run. If it was not for illegal streaming and downloading the band would no longer be working. [/quote] Sometimes I feel I am in a minority of one round here.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlfer Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I don't really know how to download. I've watched great old vid's (Camel, Curved Air, Tull, allsorts) on Youtube, free. I've downloaded bass tab free, I play covers in a band (though the pubs usually are PRS). I do think it's really sad that young folks who have their dreams, have laboured over their music, have found it's gone viral, yet get nothing for it. In my day you simply couldn't get to that level of exposure IN YEARS. I don't know what the answer is but I do think if people enjoy, perhaps morally they should contribute. Bring on Skank and Dr. Dave I say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 All these justifications, excuses and explanations don't alter the fact, yes fact, that it is illegal (against the law) to pirate music, films, games, photographs, software and many other things, so taking without paying is always stealing. It's not difficult to understand; unless you’re a person who steals these products, then you'll spend time trying to justify what you're doing. Whether or not you can pick up what you have stolen is irrelevant. The fact that you can do it and easily get away with it seems to make some people think that it's OK to steal. There is some very immature reasoning going on here. Musicians justifying stealing from other musicians? Shame on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gust0o Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340134719' post='1699819'] It's a sad day when musicians no longer see the value of music. [/quote] I suspect the issue isn't with the value musicians find in their music, but the value that other actors would seek to apply to it - in this day and age of manufactured music; and even in those cases, a lot of the funding which greases the wheels doesn't come from the music, but the corporate entities and propositions which attach to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1340181354' post='1700323'] All these justifications, excuses and explanations don't alter the fact, yes fact, that it is illegal (against the law) to pirate music, films, games, photographs, software and many other things, so taking without paying is always stealing. It's not difficult to understand; unless you’re a person who steals these products, then you'll spend time trying to justify what you're doing. Whether or not you can pick up what you have stolen is irrelevant. The fact that you can do it and easily get away with it seems to make some people think that it's OK to steal. There is some very immature reasoning going on here. Musicians justifying stealing from other musicians? Shame on you. [/quote] So what do you say to Twigman's post? He is in a band. They have success [i]because[/i] of piracy. The only immature argument around here is the one that goes "piracy is always bad". Its just not that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jamin Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 [quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1340181297' post='1700321'] Sometimes I feel I am in a minority of one round here.... [/quote] Sorry! The story with your band is great, but I think you summed it up with the word 'minority' there in that you guys are one of the few who have benefited from it in contrast to the many who have lost out on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) Wouldnt downloading be more like receiving than actually stealing? Im not arguing that its not a crime (no idea really), just that the person that uploaded it would have stolen it, they are then passing it on. Edited June 20, 2012 by dave_bass5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340181513' post='1700326'] So what do you say to Twigman's post? He is in a band. They have success [i]because[/i] of piracy. [/quote] Yep - it's a lesson to [i]some[/i] bands that giving away a back catalogue which has already been recorded (and presumably the recording paid for) is a good thing. That choice should be made by the copyright owner, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Digressing slightly - in its early days, BBC Radio was obliged to broadcast a certain percentage of live music (thanks to the Musicians' Union) to ensure that performing musicians could make a living. This was called the 'Needle Time' restriction. Bring back the Needle Time restriction! And the birch. And hanging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jamin Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340181513' post='1700326'] The only immature argument around here is the one that goes "piracy is always bad". Its just not that simple. [/quote] Well it is. It just happened to have a positive effect in the long term for his particular band. If you killed my brother I'd get inheritance. Cheers. That's a very rare occurrence and it doesn't take away from the fact that people still stole his albums and the record company got nothing out of that. Bear in mind that the albums downloaded were produced with a record company - they're not some new band who have not been signed yet. Edited June 20, 2012 by Ben Jamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1340181677' post='1700333'] Yep - it's a lesson to [i]some[/i] bands that giving away a back catalogue which has already been recorded (and presumably the recording paid for) is a good thing. That choice should be made by the copyright owner, though. [/quote] Sounds like we agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gust0o Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 To be honest guys, it's just another market - and, like all markets, it's constantly evolving. I think a lot of the major legal pressure in the States has been from those who have benefitted the most from the traditional, or previous, forms of distribution; but, quite clearly the dynamic is changing... which is why we're now having this debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 [quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1340181934' post='1700341'] Well it is. It just happened to have a positive effect in the long term for his particular band. If you killed my brother I'd get inheritance. Cheers. That's a very rare occurrence and it doesn't take away from the fact that people still stole his albums.. [/quote] Eh? I don't understand what point you're trying to make. I'm going to make this simple, because somehow people seem to have got confused. [size=6]Sometimes, for some bands, piracy can have a positive effect. Sometimes, for other bands, piracy can have a negative effect. Arguing that piracy is a black/white issue is stupid. [/size] That was all my point was in the first place. Somehow everyone got their knickers in a twist and assumed that "some piracy can be good" meant "all piracy is brilliant and you should all never pay for anything ever again". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340181513' post='1700326'] So what do you say to Twigman's post? He is in a band. They have success [i]because[/i] of piracy. The only immature argument around here is the one that goes "piracy is always bad". Its just not that simple. [/quote] Twigman's band has benefited because they had made a name for themselves in the days when it was still possible to make a living from being in a band creating original music. Their current success is mostly built on the recordings subsidised by their original record company. If they were a new band starting out playing exactly the same music they would be fairing no better than any of the other new bands on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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