Wil Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Out of curiosity, are there any people on basschat that actually make (or used to make) a significant chunk of thier income from the sale of recorded music? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='Wil' timestamp='1340269780' post='1701873'] Out of curiosity, are there any people on basschat that actually make (or used to make) a significant chunk of thier income from the sale of recorded music? [/quote] Not me personally, but two of the acts I play with do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbird13 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I think whats happening with all digital content are that customers are moving more towards an accessibilty model rather than an ownership model. So I'm quite happy to pay £10 a month to spotify and acecss all the music I want to listen to . I have no problem with this although it does mean that if I stop my subscription I lose all my collection ( until I resubscribe of course) . I take no pleasure from owning 500 or 600 cds because to me they are just bits of pastic with no emotional attachement ( vinyl woudl be different) I'm still not sure if the industry has grasped this behavioural change yet - and even if it did I'm not sure how it could "monetize" it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I would suspect many more people listen to music on streaming services than actually download torrents. Some of these streaming services are illegal but that's not obvious to the average consumer. It seems to me, artists and labels should be demanding more revenue from these new mediums, as opposed to arguing about file-sharing which is much less common IME Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1340270353' post='1701884'] And does their income suffer from Illegal downloads? [/quote] No idea mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1340268653' post='1701850'] True that. But so they should. You did used to get a huge chunk of plastic, 12 inch square full colour printed covers and inserts, photos etc. The album was a real tangible product and you played it on a really expensive stereo. The whole process was different. Now you download a series of 0's and 1's with a filename. [/quote] [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1340269974' post='1701879'] which as bigRed has pointed out previously requires no special equipment and can be done quickly. So basically almost 100% profit to whoever is selling very few costs involved. . [/quote] It all depends on what the producer and consumer want. I used to play all my vinyl on a second hand Dansette that cost me a tenner. I didn't own any "proper" hifi until I was into my 30s. Music can still be made available in what ever formats the musicians want and can afford. The Dick Venom EP is available as a download from ITunes and Amazon etc. It's convenient in that you can buy it now and have the music straight away, but all you get is the music and a JPEG of the front cover. However if you spend a little more and buy the physical CD you get all the graphics including an 8-page comic story of the RockinRollin VampireMan. I'd like to think that was an incentive to buy the CD rather than just download the songs. We'd have liked to produce a vinyl version too but in the end it turned out to be too expensive to be able to sell at a price which anyone would pay. People also forget (or don't realise in the first place) that setting up for on line streaming or downloads without a 3rd party like iTunes is not particularly cheap. We looked into hosting our own streaming on our website and found that we'd quickly exceed our bandwidth allocation which would put us into a whole new price point for hosting the site. Edited June 21, 2012 by BigRedX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='thunderbird13' timestamp='1340270586' post='1701889'] I think whats happening with all digital content are that customers are moving more towards an accessibilty model rather than an ownership model. So I'm quite happy to pay £10 a month to spotify and acecss all the music I want to listen to . I have no problem with this although it does mean that if I stop my subscription I lose all my collection ( until I resubscribe of course) . I take no pleasure from owning 500 or 600 cds because to me they are just bits of pastic with no emotional attachement ( vinyl woudl be different) I'm still not sure if the industry has grasped this behavioural change yet - and even if it did I'm not sure how it could "monetize" it [/quote] The owners of Spotify have monetized it very nicely thank you at the expense of the artists to the point where their royalty rate is much less than that of the the old selling recordings model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='thunderbird13' timestamp='1340270586' post='1701889'] ...I'm quite happy to pay £10 a month to spotify and access all the music I want to listen to. I have no problem with this although it does mean that if I stop my subscription I lose all my collection (until I resubscribe of course)...[/quote] One problem I have is that when your internet connection is down, you're stuffed. Mind you, when electricity becomes a rare commodity we'll be stuffed anyway. Time to start buying wind-up gramophones, 78 rpm records and acoustic instruments. Edit: And guns. Lots of guns. Edited June 21, 2012 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wil Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I tried to use Spotify but my internet isn't fast enough to support it. Hard to believe in this day in age, I know. Seemed an excellent idea though, to me. Forward thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbird13 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1340272052' post='1701935'] One problem I have is that when your internet connection is down, you're stuffed. [/quote] Actually that did happen to me . I had an audtion for a band , got all their setlist on a spotify playlist , took a day off work on the day of the audition to learn the songs and I couldnt get the bloodly internet to work - ended up trying to learn the songs using my old mobile stream over 3 g which kept stopping I didnt get the audition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbird13 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340271703' post='1701930'] The owners of Spotify have monetized it very nicely thank you at the expense of the artists to the point where their royalty rate is much less than that of the the old selling recordings model. [/quote] That is sadly true - BUT I dont think Spotify is going to go away now so we have to look at a way of keeping everyone happy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='thunderbird13' timestamp='1340272818' post='1701948'] I didnt get the audition [/quote] Shame. I always insist on a wax cylinder these days, just to be on the safe side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Wil' timestamp='1340272550' post='1701941'] I tried to use Spotify but my internet isn't fast enough to support it. Hard to believe in this day in age, I know.[/quote] Mine's OK up to a point... the point where the rest of the family are simultaneously streaming TV and playing games online. Tsk! Edited June 21, 2012 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='thunderbird13' timestamp='1340272906' post='1701949'] ...we have to look at a way of keeping everyone happy...[/quote] Cake. Loads of cake. Edited June 21, 2012 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1340272052' post='1701935'] One problem I have is that when your internet connection is down, you're stuffed. Mind you, when electricity becomes a rare commodity we'll be stuffed anyway. Time to start buying wind-up gramophones, 78 rpm records and acoustic instruments. Edit: And guns. Lots of guns. [/quote] 3 out of 4 ain't bad.... (unless toy guns count? That would give me a full set) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340271703' post='1701930'] The owners of Spotify have monetized it very nicely thank you at the expense of the artists to the point where their royalty rate is much less than that of the the old selling recordings model. [/quote] So the major labels should set up their own version and distribute more profits to themselves and their artists. Or negotiate with spotify. I like last FM but no idea what their royalty rate is. These services which predict what you'll enjoy are great, and people really do find new music from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340271189' post='1701913'] People also forget (or don't realise in the first place) that setting up for on line streaming or downloads without a 3rd party like iTunes is not particularly cheap. We looked into hosting our own streaming on our website and found that we'd quickly exceed our bandwidth allocation which would put us into a whole new price point for hosting the site. [/quote] Put it up on Piratebay, and megaupload (except that, along with all the Caricatures alternate masters and mixes was taken down) or equivalents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I wonder if any of the people making claims about what is and what is not stealing have actually read the entirety of the Theft Act to see what sort of things are covered. I also wonder if those people who claim "nothing has been taken because it is a copy" are aware of the Tort of Conversion and how it operates? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1340274908' post='1702012'] I wonder if any of the people making claims about what is and what is not stealing have actually read the entirety of the Theft Act to see what sort of things are covered. I also wonder if those people who claim "nothing has been taken because it is a copy" are aware of the Tort of Conversion and how it operates? [/quote] If the 'Theft Act' applied, then the laws of copyright wouldn't be required. The requirement of 'intention to permanently deprive' as part of the legal definition of 'theft' is key. Have read it. Torts are civil, so not to do with theft or anything criminal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1340274299' post='1701992'] These services which predict what you'll enjoy are great[/quote] Remember when I was arsing on about music radio earlier? And that it was dying? This will be one of the reasons why. I mean, who needs a programme director trying to predict what you're going to like when your existing tastes can drive a personalised playlist? If you've got a mobile device or an internet connection, you don't need a radio anymore, particularly if the choice is: * Free to listen but not keep. No control over streamed music sequence. Advertisers pay the costs. * Periodic subscription - listen all you want to anything you want, pay once a year * Pay once, keep forever on any device It's only a small step beyond the historic arrangement, except it puts prattling DJ's out of a job. Edited June 21, 2012 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1340274479' post='1701999'] I had a look on ye ole Pirate bay Yarr!! No Kit but there is Transglobal. Now here's what I am trying to get across as a changing model. Without yourself and BC I would have never heard of either. Locally we have two places selling music. 1)Asda, as you can imagine all chart and heavily publicized stuff. Justine Beibrat and No direction. . 2) Bert McCormicks. the last time I was in was still selling Iron Maiden VHS tapes and it wasn't as long ago as you might imagine. CDs he has Country both Western and Irish, He sells to the old biddies of the town. If you want to special order something it's a suck of the teeth and "O that'll be hard to get" and then a vastly inflated price. So I would never see either in a shop. Now if I only know of them through BC then I guess my two hypothetical mates won't have heard of them. Mate one lives next door and does not download. He won't see the Album to buy and if he did has probably wouldn't buy having never heard of them. By the time he gets home has forgotten the name to look up on Youtube. He see's Flyers for Transglobal playing in the Comrades club a couple of weeks later and pays no attention "never heard of them" he says and so goes drinking in McConnels as usual. My other mate downloads . He's on looking his daily fix of scat Porn and see's Transglobal with some nice comments *. He thinks what the hell downloads it and has a listen and enjoys what he hears. He too then see's the flyers and thinks here I'll have some of that. Buys 2 tickets one for him and one for his bird. Maybe even talks a few of his mates into going. Goes to the gig buys some drinks and Merch. Now my Non downloading mate has earned Transglobal nothing they have made no profit through him not downloading. He won't buy an album therefore nothing has been gained. My downloading mate has given money to Transglobal. They have earned money from his illegal download (Does this mean they are profiting from crime?) They have sold 2 tickets maybe more if he talks his mates into it , maybe a cut of the bar and of course the Merch. Maybe his mates will buy a CD at the gig. They haven't lost a sale of an Album because he wouldn't have bought it anyway. The first download has planted the seed of a fan. But instead of embracing that person he is treated as a criminal [b]Now can you see how Free downloads can be a good thing for an artist. [/b]Imagine how many fans you could actually get if you publicized the free download. And of course an increased fan base makes other things possible. More Merch possibilities etc etc. [/quote] Yes, and I can also see how people stealing cars is good for insurance companies. As has been said before many times in this mammoth thread, why does the free download have to be an illegal one? Nearly 85% of people who check out new music do so on youtube, bands give tracks away for free, pay what you think it's worth for an album on bandcamp, etc. etc. .. Why does the download have to be illegal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1340275685' post='1702031'] Yes, and I can also see how people stealing cars is good for insurance companies. [/quote] Manufacturers rather than insurance companies would be the equivalence surely? Further equivalence would be not stealing cars, but making copies of a car you have, and giving them away. Which shows where the theft bit doesn't apply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1340275207' post='1702018'] If the 'Theft Act' applied, then the laws of copyright wouldn't be required. The requirement of 'intention to permanently deprive' as part of the legal definition of 'theft' is key. Have read it. Torts are civil, so not to do with theft or anything criminal. [/quote] And yet false accounting falls under the Theft Act too. Conversion is the civil equivalent of theft but also extends to the use of items legitimately held by a person, but being used in a manner not authorised by the person contracted with. I've only been a lawyer for 15 years so I have absolutely no f***ing clue, obviously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1340276118' post='1702041'] Manufacturers rather than insurance companies would be the equivalence surely? Further equivalence would be not stealing cars, but making copies of a car you have, and giving them away. Which shows where the theft bit doesn't apply. [/quote] It was a general observation that crime can benefit certain parties not involved in the undertaking of the criminal act. Is that ok? I will try to be more careful next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1340276273' post='1702048'] And yet false accounting falls under the Theft Act too. Conversion is the civil equivalent of theft but also extends to the use of items legitimately held by a person, but being used in a manner not authorised by the person contracted with. [/quote] Are you against the existence of copyright law then? Also in the latter case, where is the contract, and the item? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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