paul torch Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='phil.i.stein' timestamp='1340341744' post='1703004'] DJ's who err..., steal other people's music, and mix it up, a bit like paint [/quote] oh, you mean like covers bands? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skol303 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 No disrespect here folks, but debating the legality of file sharing is kinda missing the point... sharing copyrighted material is illegal but it won't stop people doing it (or commiting other illegal acts like, oh I dunno, murder for instance). The proverbial horse has bolted on this issue and there's no way of stopping illegal downloads now. Remember the original Napster? That got shut down and did it make any difference? Did it heck. If anything it kicked open the floodgates. People have always copied music illegally. I'm guilty of doing so via tape to tape when I was younger, and I'm sure many other people here are too. The Internet has both expanded the scope of illegal sharing and the scope of music marketing/distribution: sure more people are 'stealing' music, but more people are buying it too - it's just that the preference is now for buying individual tracks rather than whole albums. This is what the major labels really dislike. That and a huge increase in competition from independents and people just doing it for themselves via the 'direct to fan' business model: using things like YouTube, Bandcamp, SoundCloud etc to promote and sell their music in ways the music 'establishment' is struggling to keep pace with. Many artists now give away their music for free and earn revenue from gigs and merchandise. Again, this is something that major labels with massive studio overheads and artists' fees really dislike. There's nothing that will put this particular genie back in its bottle. File sharing is here to stay - like it or not - so it's a case of accepting this and working with it, or trying to resist and hitting a brick wall of frustration. It might not be right and fair. But it is how it is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wil Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Excellent post, you've hit the nail on the head IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1340353759' post='1703091'] This poor girl seems to be scraping by a bit... Don't steal her music. [/quote] I was wondering when someone would mention Adele. She seems to me to be an exception, a rarity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Musky' timestamp='1340350383' post='1703047'] Excuse me if someone else has made this point, but my eyes glazed over around page 13. Almost my entire CD collection has been ripped to my computer. An illegal act, depriving musicians of income. If anyone thinks I'm a c*** or wants to block this criminal mastermind from their 'for sale' thread, then fair play. Although I'd suggest others are also caught up in this double standards conundrum and perhaps ought to moderate their language. [/quote] I think you should read the whole thread before pontificating, a lot has developed since page 13. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Musky' timestamp='1340350383' post='1703047'] Almost my entire CD collection has been ripped to my computer. An illegal act, depriving musicians of income. [/quote] It might be technically illegal to rip CDs to a hard drive, but how does that deprive musicians of income if the CD has been legitimately purchased? Unless we think it's fair to pay once for a CD and once more for a download for our iPods. Personally, I don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1340355871' post='1703143'] It might be technically illegal to rip CDs to a hard drive, but how does that deprive musicians of income if the CD has been legitimately purchased? Unless we think it's fair to pay once for a CD and once more for a download for our iPods. Personally, I don't. [/quote] Not read the whole thread but this also then brings up the subject of the second hand market. CD bought once, artist gets their cut. Subsequently sold on, artist gets nothing. Are we all immoral if we buy second hand units? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='XB26354' timestamp='1340300036' post='1702599'] This is wider than music, it's anything that can be obtained electronically. Software, anyone? It is stealing. It is be a commercial product for sale that has taken time and effort for skilled people to produce which technology allows people to get for free. [/quote] Yes, it is wider than music but it's not always stealing. There is a large and growing 'open source' movement in the software world and there is loads of 'freeware' out there. Similarly, there are loads of bands that allow their music to be freely streamed and some even give away their music. Heck, a lot of bands play for free and, as we have discussed, some even pay for the privilege. Such things might undermine the market for selling such things, but that's life. It's hardly reasonable to make it illegal to give away music is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 So how do people feel about the second hand market? If you buy a second hand cd you get some music, the artist makes nothing, and someone who isn't the artist makes some money on the sale. The more I think about it, the more that I think buying second hand cds is a bit morally dubious too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='XB26354' timestamp='1340300036' post='1702599'] Who makes a living from music unless it's covers or functions, or one of the few fading bands on their last hurrah?[/quote] Rihanna. The Black Eyed Peas. Lady Gaga. Adele. The Black Keys. Alabama Shakes. Dr John. Hot Chip. Bon Iver... ... *breathe in* [i]aannd[/i] many, many [i]many [/i]others, some famous, some not so. But all making a living from music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul torch Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340356324' post='1703158'] So how do people feel about the second hand market? If you buy a second hand cd you get some music, the artist makes nothing, and someone who isn't the artist makes some money on the sale. The more I think about it, the more that I think buying second hand cds is a bit morally dubious too. [/quote] but surely the artist has already made their slice from the original sale. it's not as though there is now 2 copies in existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 If basschat was around when music recording first started, we'd probably be discussing how recording was killing live bands. Once upon a time if you wanted music you would have to somewhere to listen to people actually play stuff, right there, right then. Recording changed all that and discos, for example, must have massively changed the market for live bands. But did it kill live music? Of course not. Things change and people have to change with them. Next, someone will be saying that the Internet is a bad thing and should be scrapped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='paul torch' timestamp='1340356419' post='1703163'] but surely the artist has already made their slice from the original sale. it's not as though there is now 2 copies in existence. [/quote] Unless the seller digitised it for their iPOD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) That's my point, if the original CD keeps getting handed round after the initial sale then the artist gets 1 lot of royalties. If the CD ends up on a file sharing site then the artist gets the same. In terms of how much the artist has made it doesn't matter how many copies there are. Then it's down to guesswork as to how many of those people who have it [i]might[/i] have bought it from scratch if it wasn't otherwise available. I've bought lots of things secondhand I wouldn't have paid full new price for and that includes music. Edited June 22, 2012 by KevB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1340356688' post='1703169'] Next, someone will be saying that the Internet is a bad thing and should be scrapped. [/quote] [b][size=5]OMG STOP TEH INTERNETZ!![/size][/b] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul torch Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='phil.i.stein' timestamp='1340341744' post='1703004'] DJ's who err..., steal other people's music, and mix it up, a bit like paint [/quote] oh like this? mixed up a bit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=H-KKKs0f6hg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) [quote name='paul torch' timestamp='1340353263' post='1703085'] steal? please explain[/quote] In this case I believe steal = 'sample'. Being an early-adopting 'sampler' myself in the late eighties/early nineties I seem to remember a similar debate taking place at the time... Edited June 22, 2012 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul torch Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1340357842' post='1703194'] In this case I believe steal = 'sample'. Being an early-adopting 'sampler' myself in the late eighties/early nineties I seem to remember a similar debate taking place at the time... [/quote] though agree that some artists may be guilty, most ensure that any samples are cleared. Unlike the Verve "Bittersweet Symphony" where I believe someone forgot to clear the Stones sample and they found themselves in a bit of bother. This is going a little off-topic though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='paul torch' timestamp='1340358109' post='1703199'] This is going a little off-topic though.[/quote] Yeah, I do that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul torch Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1340357691' post='1703192'] Thats bloody hard to listen too! [/quote] I feel the same way about Genesis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 And so-called R'n'B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skol303 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I guess there are two debates going on here... 1. Is obtaining a copyrighted product without paying for it an illegal act? Well yes it is, if the copyright holder has made clear it's a commercial product: be it a piece of music, software, a book, the plans for a nuclear reactor, or whatever. 2. Can anything be done to stop the illegal sharing of copyrighted music? No, not really. Files can be encrypted, but hackers will eventually develop a workaround. Websites can be shut down, but that just drives traffic to other sites. It's a losing battle. Does it take money away from musicians and record labels? Yes, it most certainly does. By this particular sob story isn't going to dissuade people from pirating stuff online. The likes of Lars Ulrich might rail against Napster for denting his disposable income - but it's artists at that level that are most affected by all of this: because they have the marketing budget sufficient to drum up enough interest for people to bother pirating them. Unsigned bands and bedroom artists just don't have the profile to warrant suffering from mass piracy - people interested in them are generally far more happy to spend .79p for a download... and let's face it, if an unsigned artist is attracting millions of illegal downloads then it won't be long before they're soaking up the gravy train! It worked for Justin Bieber. Seriously. Like I said earlier, the distribution of recorded music - hell, probably the value of recorded music itself - has changed, and it's changed forever. The days of rock bands releasing a dozen albums over a 10+ year career are probably going to be thin on the ground in future. In some ways this is a sad thing to have lost. In others, it opens up the market to much more choice and gives scope for artists to compete for listeners on a more level playing field. Whether you think this is right or not is immaterial, really - because that's how it is. PS: not trying to be flippant here. I have friends who've lost their jobs in recent years because of changes in the music industry, but what I'm saying here is as much from their viewpoint as mine. "The times they are a-changing!" There's a song there somewhere. If anyone has the torrent, let me know... ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twigman Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1340364577' post='1703325'] I guess there are two debates going on here... 1. Is obtaining a copyrighted product without paying for it an illegal act? Well yes it is, if the copyright holder has made clear it's a commercial product: be it a piece of music, software, a book, the plans for a nuclear reactor, or whatever. 2. Can anything be done to stop the illegal sharing of copyrighted music? No, not really. Files can be encrypted, but hackers will eventually develop a workaround. Websites can be shut down, but that just drives traffic to other sites. It's a losing battle. [/quote] and a third: 3. Is illegal distribution really really such a bad thing or an opportunity for free marketing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skol303 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1340364886' post='1703331'] and a third: 3. Is illegal distribution really really such a bad thing or an opportunity for free marketing? [/quote] Good question, and I think the answer depends on who you ask! Major labels now factor illegal downloads into their sales revenue estimates. It's also common practice for labels to 'leak' files on torrent sites to generate interest. But I guess by definition it's still illegal... which makes it a 'bad thing' in legal terms at least. It's a bit like McDonalds branding their packaging. You see their litter everywhere and it acts like a form of free 'advertising' for their product. I mean, why else brand something you know is going to end up littering the streets? Actually, it's probably nothing like this example... but what the heck. I WANT A BIG MAC NOW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1340355458' post='1703130'] I think you should read the whole thread before pontificating, a lot has developed since page 13. [/quote] I think I might lose the will to live. OK, I'm going in. I may be sometime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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