cheddatom Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1340275275' post='1702022'] Remember when I was arsing on about music radio earlier? And that it was dying? This will be one of the reasons why... It's only a small step beyond the historic arrangement, except it puts prattling DJ's out of a job. [/quote] Personally, I think that's a great thing, but obviously not for struggling DJs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1340275275' post='1702022'] It's only a small step beyond the historic arrangement, except it puts prattling DJ's out of a job. [/quote] I thought you said it was a bad thing Edit: Bugger, Tom beat me to it. Edited June 21, 2012 by Dave Vader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Maybe we should stop thinking of recorded music as a product and start thinking of it as a service. That way when people obtain a copy of a song that they have not paid for but should have it's the same as not paying someone for having done a job. Surely we can all agree that this is a bad thing? No one wants to work without being paid for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340277882' post='1702085'] ...Surely we can all agree that this is a bad thing? No one wants to work without being paid for it. [/quote] I think we could all agree on that. it's a bit more complicated though. If a band is a self-marketing entity, what about special offers or free giveaways, which are seen as acceptable in most industries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340277882' post='1702085'] Maybe we should stop thinking of recorded music as a product and start thinking of it as a service. That way when people obtain a copy of a song that they have not paid for but should have it's the same as not paying someone for having done a job. Surely we can all agree that this is a bad thing? No one wants to work without being paid for it. [/quote] Service would be the gigs part, the actual playing, rather than an ongoing thing from having played under certain conditions previously. Session musicians work on that basis, you get your session fee for your playing, then the product you worked on is someone else's. Otherwise it would be like a bespoke car manufacturer charging a fee every time someone drives the car, or every time someone sells it or parts of it thereof (sampling). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commando Jack Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1340274479' post='1701999'] ...Huge post about the hypothetical gig and file sharing... [/quote] I wasn't ever really going to comment on the issue itself but I just wanted to say I enjoyed the local references Bert's is a weird little time warp shop, even in Ballyclare, which is in a time warp from the rest of the country anyway! Have you heard the [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl6OQT_lh_A"]charity single[/url]? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1340276811' post='1702064'] Are you against the existence of copyright law then? Also in the latter case, where is the contract, and the item? [/quote] No, I'm in favour of copyright law but it should be part of a re-drafted Theft Act. The Theft Act is inadequate and was drafted in a time when the only intangible items that could be stolen were items such as shares in a company and in terms of theft of rights the chances of someone photocopying the new Dan Brown book to flog at the market just didn't happen. In the latter case - If you get a loan from a bank and tell the bank it is for a car and then you spend the money on a bass then that would be conversion as well as a breach of contract. That money is ONLY for buying a car. A claim in conversion would be the civil response. It would also be obtaining money by deception as you lied to the bank about the purpose of the loan. Of course in reality the bank doesn't need to care unless you default. If you borrow your friends lawnmower to cut your grass, and then also use it to cut someone elses (whether or not you charge for the service) then that is also conversion. It does not require an actual contract with consideration on all sides, but merely an agreement (such as cutting YOUR grass) and to go beyond it results in conversion. Again, the chances of anyone actually suing are basically nil, but that doesn't change the legal position that you didn't have permission to use the lawnmower in that fashion. Also, if I willingly lend you a pedal and then ask for it back after a few weeks and you don't get round to it... that is not usually considered theft. But the pedal has been bailed to you (lent in this case) so the civil response would be to draft proceedings in Bailment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1340281451' post='1702193'] If you borrow your friends lawnmower to cut your grass, and then also use it to cut someone elses (whether or not you charge for the service) then that is also conversion. It does not require an actual contract with consideration on all sides, but merely an agreement (such as cutting YOUR grass) and to go beyond it results in conversion. Again, the chances of anyone actually suing are basically nil, but that doesn't change the legal position that you didn't have permission to use the lawnmower in that fashion. [/quote] Blimey! Typical lawyer nonsense. Not in a legal sense I'm sure (am not qualified to question it anyway) but a good example of the sort of answer you get when asking a lawyer something because they are obliged to point out all the possible risks and implications and will then explain how to cover yourself for every eventuality - at a cost of course. Anyway, if you ask to borrow your neighbour's lawnmower, what are chances they will ask 'what for'? In which case, the 'loan contract' has no usage terms anyway. (what's that old saying about free advice being worth every penny? ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1340282085' post='1702212'] Blimey! Typical lawyer nonsense. Not in a legal sense I'm sure (am not qualified to question it anyway) but a good example of the sort of answer you get when asking a lawyer something because they are obliged to point out all the possible risks and implications and will then explain how to cover yourself for every eventuality - at a cost of course. Anyway, if you ask to borrow your neighbour's lawnmower, what are chances they will ask 'what for'? In which case, the 'loan contract' has no usage terms anyway. (what's that old saying about free advice being worth every penny? ) [/quote] Yeah, but then think of the fun we can have with Implied Terms! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commando Jack Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1340281320' post='1702188'] they are right about Sport and Sound. I think they have had the same packet of d'addrios in the window for the 5 years I have lived here. Mrs couldn't understand why I ordered from string busters rather than walk into town [/quote] Eek! I think they keep them there so they don't have to just call it "sport". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1340281320' post='1702188'] As For why does it have to be illegal?exactly why does it? Where is the difference between a free listen on Youtube, bandcamp or Last.FM and downloading from a Torrent site? If an artists gives a song away free on their website what is wrong with downloading it from Pirate bay? [/quote] I think that it's all a question of associated content., and keeping the artist in control of their work and its distribution. If I make a Terrortones track available for streaming on our website, post a video on our YouTube channel, or make a track available on Bandcamp you have to go to a page that we've designed. There will be other information about the band to read, links to our other presences on the internet that you can follow. You can only listen to the music or watch the video while you are connected to the internet and have a browser window open on that page. If we choose to take the song or video down and replace it with something else we can, and once we do that it's no longer available to hear or view. What happens is that the band remains in control of the availability of the content irrespective of the fact that it is free. In fact in order to get the free stuff you come to a page that we control where maybe you'll stick around for long enough to decide to buy something as well as enjoy what you can see and hear for free. Also the free stuff may only be transitory - it's not necessarily permanent. It acts as a marketing tool for the band and the content they would like to be paid for. Put it on a torrent site and immediately it's disassociated from the rest of the band content It's just a file name in a list of other file names. The band looses control over how their music and video is seen and distributed. The whole point of the new methods of content delivery on the internet was to put artists back in control of their works and that should be seen by everyone as a good thing. Sticking it on a torrent completely defeats that object. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1340289499' post='1702360'] As for remaining in Control that to me sounds like you don't want people to listen to your music unless it is under your terms. which to me goes against the ethos of what music is. Music was originally to be shared where as people like your self seem to treat as no more than a product. Were it's not about sharing your music and people listening to it but how much coinage you can get from it. Almost as if you feel people should be privileged to have the chance to listen and if people don't like your rules you will take your toys away and not let the other kids play. Turning music into such a commodity makes me kinda sad [/quote] I see it more as listening to the music in context. We've gone to a fair bit of trouble to make a unified sound, look and philosophy to the band where all the pieces go together to form a whole. As you might have spotted we're not one of these bands that shambles on stage in t-shirt and jeans in order to play some music as though we were still in the rehearsal room. We put on a show and involve the audience completely. I see our web presence as an extension of that. It's like the days of the vinyl album where the music was just part of the package and the band's visual identity was linked to the record sleeve design. Of course you could just grab the songs for free from any site that's hosting them, but them AFAWC you'd be missing part of the experience. That's what I find kinda sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I'm pretty sure that if anyone downloaded some terrortones they would check out the website. Half the appeal of the CD for me was the little comic that you get. If all you did was download a torrent then obviously you'd miss out on that extra connection, but most people investigate IME, especially as it's so easy with google. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 But would they know it was worth doing? I always check out the websites of bands I like, but that's just me. Most of my friends never bother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340292094' post='1702415'] But would they know it was worth doing? I always check out the websites of bands I like, but that's just me. Most of my friends never bother. [/quote] Hmmm, in my experience people do google bands they like Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass-Thing Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1340132077' post='1699761'] Anyone remember the 'Home Taping is Killing Music' campaign? [/quote] I remember it well. We used to tape each others vinyl albums at school. Still I loved records so much (I still have a huge collection of vinyl) that I bought any album I liked that I'd had a tape of, as soon as I could afford it. I still prefer having CDs to downloads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Me too - on all counts, except we'd tape each others records after school. Because of the tape quality, all my favourites were eventually replaced with LPs. I've since digitised them and they all languish in the attic - funny how it's hard to let them go. Later, I would also make tapes of my own LPs to play in the car. That used to be a bit controversial as it was, I believe, technically illegal but it was the only way to have music in the car at the time. Thankfully the music industry's attempt to get a levy on all blank tape sales was never successful. Later still, before the advent of CD burners, I re-purchased most of my favourite music on CD, so I've paid twice for a lot of my collection. These days, I refuse to buy downloads because of the lossy encoding and DRM issues and only buy CDs. This gives me the full quality music as well as a backup copy. However, since going fully digital, all my CD purchases have only seen the inside of a CD drive once while I convert them. I don't even have a CD player connected to the hi-fi any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB26354 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 This is wider than music, it's anything that can be obtained electronically. Software, anyone? It is stealing. It is be a commercial product for sale that has taken time and effort for skilled people to produce which technology allows people to get for free. If you could get Dulux paint or your weekly shop off the back of a lorry, stolen, what's the difference, just because you can see the object? Is there even a music industry left? Who makes a living from music unless it's covers or functions, or one of the few fading bands on their last hurrah? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='XB26354' timestamp='1340300036' post='1702599'] This is wider than music, it's anything that can be obtained electronically. Software, anyone? It is stealing. It is be a commercial product for sale that has taken time and effort for skilled people to produce which technology allows people to get for free. If you could get Dulux paint or your weekly shop off the back of a lorry, stolen, what's the difference, just because you can see the object? Is there even a music industry left? Who makes a living from music unless it's covers or functions, or one of the few fading bands on their last hurrah? [/quote] The difference between software and tangibles is when you take a tangible, you've removed it from someone else, the 'intention to permanently deprive' that is part of the definition of Theft, whereas the electronic stuff you've made a copy of, leaving the originator with just as much as they had before. So that would be mixing up your own paint to use, or growing your own groceries in such a way they are the same as that on the lorry, without them ever having to fall of the lorry, which continues to its intended location, which you no longer have to go to, because you've already sorted yourself for that stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='XB26354' timestamp='1340300036' post='1702599'] Who makes a living from music unless it's covers or functions, or one of the few fading bands on their last hurrah? [/quote] DJ's who err..., steal other people's music, and mix it up, a bit like paint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1340326265' post='1702993'] The difference between software and tangibles is when you take a tangible, you've removed it from someone else, the 'intention to permanently deprive' that is part of the definition of Theft, whereas the electronic stuff you've made a copy of, leaving the originator with just as much as they had before. So that would be mixing up your own paint to use, or growing your own groceries in such a way they are the same as that on the lorry, without them ever having to fall of the lorry, which continues to its intended location, which you no longer have to go to, because you've already sorted yourself for that stuff. [/quote] Making a copy permanently deprives the person who wrote the software of payment for the work of they've created. 'Leaving the originator with just as much as they had before' is an irrelevant argument if the intention was to be paid for that output, all you're doing is indulging in semantics and your analogies are therefore irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Excuse me if someone else has made this point, but my eyes glazed over around page 13. Almost my entire CD collection has been ripped to my computer. An illegal act, depriving musicians of income. If anyone thinks I'm a c*** or wants to block this criminal mastermind from their 'for sale' thread, then fair play. Although I'd suggest others are also caught up in this double standards conundrum and perhaps ought to moderate their language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul torch Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='phil.i.stein' timestamp='1340341744' post='1703004'] DJ's who err..., steal other people's music, and mix it up, a bit like paint [/quote] steal? please explain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='XB26354' timestamp='1340300036' post='1702599'] Is there even a music industry left? Who makes a living from music unless it's covers or functions, or one of the few fading bands on their last hurrah? [/quote] This poor girl seems to be scraping by a bit... Don't steal her music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.