Marketing Ploys ... Do you fall for them?

[musophilr]

Politicians have theirs, often called "manifestos". Nobody believes in them, but still we end up paying, evey time.

[tauzero]

What amazes me is that cables carrying digital signals (HDMI, USB, etc) will actually get reviews saying that they improved the sound in some way that is contrary to the laws of physics and information theory. Either your 1s and 0s get from one end to the other undamaged or they don't. If they're all there then the signal is as it started out and if they're not all there then randomly losing the odd bit or 1024 won't have a coherent effect on the frequency characteristics of the analogue signal that has been encoded.

[flyfisher]

Even better than that, if their not all there, clever error correction can return the signal to its error-free state anyway (up to certain limits of data corruption).

As for over dimensioned transformers, I would have thought that three dimensions would be enough for even the most demanding bassist.

[Mark_Andertons]

*dies inside at the misinterpretation of the wider scope of 'marketing' and feels sad and ashamed to have devoted life to a career to it*

[Mr. Foxen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo

[discreet]

Bill Hicks - we need you now!!

[mcnach]

[quote name='BassPimp66' timestamp='1340454642' post='1704632']
The quest for the perfect sound is endless...
But, I feel marketing is sometimes a lot of b*******.What do you think of the below?
- True Bypass = big switch that goes click, how difficult is that?
- Oxygen Free Copper cable = overpriced cable with no proven benefit
- Vintage Tone Circuit = could not be bothered to design something new, so I stole schematics from old Fender stuff
- High Mass Bridge = a little thicker and less flimsy than average bridge
- Phenolic Fingerboard = plasticky fingerboard
- Made in USA = so what ????
- High excursion speakers = isn't it the speaker job to excursiate big time?

etc... Feel free to add.
[/quote]

Generally agree, but:

- phenolic fingerboard. I don't think they normally advertise it as being "better", and I do like them.
- high excursion speakers: this is genuinely a good characteristic

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1340723453' post='1708626']
What amazes me is that cables .......... get reviews saying that they improved the sound in some way that is contrary to the laws of physics ...........[/quote]

[Tankdave]

Fully screened optical cables that have all metal constuction plugs so that they earth properly make a huge difference.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Tankdave

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1340730627' post='1708809']
- phenolic fingerboard. I don't think they normally advertise it as being "better", and I do like them.
[/quote]
Agreed.
I have 3 basses with phenolic fretboards. Made by manufacturers who have no idea what they're doing. Like Status, Vigier and Yamaha.
They don't make any extravagant claims for them, and two use them because they're less prone to expansion/contraction than wood, which helps stop them "popping off" of the graphite necks they're bonded to.

Oh yes, and Steinberger and Modulus use them too. As, oddly, do Squire on some models.

[BassPimp66]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' timestamp='1340731854' post='1708841']
and two use them because they're less prone to expansion/contraction than wood, which helps stop them "popping off" of the graphite necks they're bonded to.
[/quote]

I have never seen an ebony fretboard "pop off" from a graphite neck, but it sounds so scary that I want a phenolic fretboard now !!!
P.S: I own a Modulus Flea 5... guilty as charged.

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='BassPimp66' timestamp='1340742082' post='1709089']
I have never seen an ebony fretboard "pop off" from a graphite neck, but it sounds so scary that I want a phenolic fretboard now !!!
P.S: I own a Modulus Flea 5... guilty as charged.
[/quote]

FWIW, Ebony is probably the least likely wooden fretboard to fall off! (given that it's probably the most stable)

[spinynorman]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1340729793' post='1708784']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo[/media]
[/quote]

Thanks for that.

[amnesia]

[quote name='Tankdave' timestamp='1340731244' post='1708832']
Fully screened optical cables that have all metal constuction plugs so that they earth properly make a huge difference.
[/quote]

Eh? I hope you don't mean optical.

[4 Strings]

ok, True Bypass thicky here.

If you add a simple switch in the signal path of a bass how does this change anything? There are pickup switches on some guitars/basses, they don't cause any trouble. I can understand how sending the signal round an electronic circuit may effect the pickups differently to bypassing the electronic circuit but if the bypass simply sends the signal straight through to the pedal output I can't understand why that's wrong. Do active/passive switches cause this?

Single syllables please.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1340787756' post='1709479']
ok, True Bypass thicky here.

If you add a simple switch in the signal path of a bass how does this change anything? There are pickup switches on some guitars/basses, they don't cause any trouble. I can understand how sending the signal round an electronic circuit may effect the pickups differently to bypassing the electronic circuit but if the bypass simply sends the signal straight through to the pedal output I can't understand why that's wrong. Do active/passive switches cause this?

Single syllables please.
[/quote]

The impedance on the pickups changes when you go from the input of a circuit to all the cable before and after the bypassed pedal and the amp input, impedance on a pickup determines how it responds. So if you have a pedal such as some Sansamps with high input impedance (which tends towards making them sound better, see the Zvex super hard on which is a high impedance buffer) and a buffer, your pickups are constantly at the same impedance if the effect is on or off, but if you 'true bypass' it you change the impedance changing the basic tone from your pickups. Additionally the switch won't be perfect and has its own impedance and such as well as not being shielded and making a pop when you switch, all of which can be avoided in a buffered circuit. Switching from active to passive will also change the impedance, as the active circuit is an impedance buffer itself, being active means you aren't subject to the variable of the impedance of external devices. Impedance issues are most noticeable with piezo pickups, which is why they usually come with an active preamp.

[steve-bbb]

Hair Care Science anyone?

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1340791143' post='1709550']
The impedance on the pickups changes when you go from the input of a circuit to all the cable before and after the bypassed pedal and the amp input, impedance on a pickup determines how it responds. So if you have a pedal such as some Sansamps with high input impedance (which tends towards making them sound better, see the Zvex super hard on which is a high impedance buffer) and a buffer, your pickups are constantly at the same impedance if the effect is on or off, but if you 'true bypass' it you change the impedance changing the basic tone from your pickups. Additionally the switch won't be perfect and has its own impedance and such as well as not being shielded and making a pop when you switch, all of which can be avoided in a buffered circuit. Switching from active to passive will also change the impedance, as the active circuit is an impedance buffer itself, being active means you aren't subject to the variable of the impedance of external devices. Impedance issues are most noticeable with piezo pickups, which is why they usually come with an active preamp.
[/quote]

Right, hanging on by a thread here.

Yes, I understand that switching a circuit in or out will change the impedance seen by the pickup and so changes its characteristics. So if you buffer it you change it to be equal to that for the effect electronics when in 'bypass'. (I also understand how a pup will 'see' only an active circuit and so what happens after the active circuit doesn't directly affect it, thanks for that.)

But I don't see how going straight through is any worse than a longer lead (and any effect the switch has, which should be pretty minor). If you like the sound of your bass without the effect then surely this is the nearest to not having anything in the signal path even if the pup has a different characteristic when the effect is switched in?

(sorry to divert the thread)

Edited June 27, 2012 by 4 Strings

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1340794298' post='1709607']
Right, hanging on by a thread here.

Yes, I understand that switching a circuit in or out will change the impedance seen by the pickup and so changes its characteristics. So if you buffer it you change it to be equal to that for the effect electronics when in 'bypass'. (I also understand how a pup will 'see' only an active circuit and so what happens after the active circuit doesn't directly affect it, thanks for that.)

But I don't see how going straight through is any worse than a longer lead (and any effect the switch has, which should be pretty minor). If you like the sound of your bass without the effect then surely this is the nearest to not having anything in the signal path even if the pup has a different characteristic when the effect is switched in?

(sorry to divert the thread)
[/quote]

It is like constantly changing the lengths of the lead depending on what pedals are on or off. A buffer means you have a consistent impedance load and thus a consistent sound from your instrument before adding effects. It means a shorter signal path because it goes as far as the buffer, rather than a varying signal path, and thus a consistent tone for you to eq at the amp end. The buffer provides a constant impedance so that it doesn't change when you turn on the effect, although its kind of built into the pedal in most circumstances, it isn't part of the effect circuit, its guitar to buffer, then to effect. Plus the pop you get with true bypass gain pedals is the sound of the switch not being minor, they are pretty far from perfect devices.

[discreet]

Anti-ageing creams and potions.

[size=3][font=arial, sans-serif]"...They laughed when I said I'd get rid of my wrinkles, but when I started looking ten years younger, they begged me for my secret..."[/font][/size]

[font=arial, sans-serif][size=1][/size][/font]

Edited June 27, 2012 by discreet

[Wil]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1340731067' post='1708825']

[/quote]

[brensabre79]

As someone who works in Marketing, designing and writing ads specifically (although not for any bass products!), I have to say that often a list of features is just that. Its not an attempt to make something appear better than it is.

Years ago I took my friend to buy a car from a chap i knew, I asked him what was the most important feature that he wanted from his new car as we were looking. He said "an adjustment control for the speed of the intermittent wipers".

I didn't even know such a thing existed at the time! My car didn't have one, it wasn't on my list of requirements when I bought it. Now i look for one in every car i buy because, having driven his, I realise that it makes the experience of driving in light rain very slightly less tedious.

So next time you look at the bullet point list of features (e.g. Phenolic fingerboards etc.) it might not be something that appeals to you personally, but it is there because a huge amount of usually expensive research has shown that some people look for it, some look for something without it. Either way, if you know its there you won't get any post purchase dissonance.

The more knowledge someone has about a product, the more informed an opinion can be made as to whether to go and check it out. That is all. We're not allowed to say things that are not true, despite people thinking we're a bunch of liars. Yes the truth has to be well told, but it is always the truth. Even if a manufacturer says "We believe that dunking our basses in sulphuric acid for 3 months really improves the tone" it's just their opinion, so many people read this sort of thing and say, they are full of crap this is not scientifically proven, therefore they are trying to rip me off!

Not all marketing guff is guff, thats all I'm saying. Putting a picture of a blonde in a bikini next to your product is just lazy, and it basically says "there's nothing good to say about this product so here's a half naked lady".

[Mr. Foxen]

When I buy stuff, I'd rather pay for half a day of a model and a photographer's time than for "a huge amount of usually expensive research" into deciding what they choose to tell me. The raw engineering data from the design process will do me fine.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1340796200' post='1709646']
When I buy stuff, I'd rather pay for half a day of a model and a photographer's time than for "a huge amount of usually expensive research" into deciding what they choose to tell me. The raw engineering data from the design process will do me fine.
[/quote]

But's not just a half day's of model and photographer time. There's also the couple of days time the marketing department and design agency spent picking which model and photographer to use (plus the stylist, and artistic director and all their minions)...

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340796588' post='1709659']
But's not just a half day's of model and photographer time. There's also the couple of days time the marketing department and design agency spent picking which model and photographer to use (plus the stylist, and artistic director and all their minions)...
[/quote]

Not when I do it.