DaveFry Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Try this Audio Illusion ; [url="http://philomel.com/musical_illusions/play.php?fname=Tritone_paradox"]http://philomel.com/...Tritone_paradox[/url] It is just four pairs of tones , each pair consists of tones a tritone ( aug 4th ) apart . But each tone is so harmonically rich that the fundamental is indeterminate ; it could be in any octave* . By the third pair I can't tell if the two tones go up or down ! How do other more experienced ears here get on with it ? * Missing Fundamental : [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_fundamental"]http://en.wikipedia....ing_fundamental[/url] The illusion comes from [url="http://deutsch.ucsd.edu/psychology/pages.php?i=206"]http://deutsch.ucsd....pages.php?i=206 [/url] where they conclude that the way each of us perceives the illusion depends on the speech we each heard as children , but further research [url="http://www.klinikum.uni-heidelberg.de/index.php?id=5503&L=en"]http://www.klinikum....hp?id=5503&L=en[/url] suggests that the left side of the Auditory Cortex of the brain is responsible for recognising the fundamental whereas the right side perceives the harmonics ( spectral perception ). I only know that for me they both get confused by the illusion above . I just want to be able to play fretless in tune Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismuzz Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) That is really weird!! I had to listen to them over and over again individually to get them (what I think is) right! Edited June 25, 2012 by chrismuzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) I don't understand what it's trying to establish? Sure the harmonic content either side of the fundamental is dictating whether we hear the interval lower or higher, but if the level of the harmonic content is 'lob-sided' for lack of a better term from one sample to the next surely that doesn't make much of a test. EDIT - ahh I understand. It's interesting I guess, the way we perceive each sound is very individual though, so I'm guessing the whole point of it is that there are no right or wrong answers to it. Edited June 25, 2012 by risingson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) i'll get around to doing this in a min, but the tritone is also known as the 'false octave'. it's my favourite interval, much underrated, and not part of many traditionally-taught scales. also 'the devil's interval' - ooo-er.. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone[/url] Edited June 25, 2012 by phil.i.stein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 [quote name='phil.i.stein' timestamp='1340653459' post='1707697'] i'll get around to doing this in a min, but the tritone is also known as the 'false octave'. it's my favourite interval, much underrated, and not part of many traditionally-taught scales. also 'the devil's interval' - ooo-er.. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone[/url] [/quote] It's also incredibly difficult for untrained ears to pitch anyway because of how unnatural and jarring it is musically. Stravinsky was a big fan, plus everyone and anyone who came after him and took great influence from him. Leonard Bernstein, John Williams spring to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 [quote name='risingson' timestamp='1340654372' post='1707720'] It's also incredibly difficult for untrained ears to pitch anyway because of how [b]unnatural and jarring it is musically[/b]. Stravinsky was a big fan, plus everyone and anyone who came after him and took great influence from him. Leonard Bernstein, John Williams spring to mind. [/quote] that'll be why so many people find punk, metal, d'n'b, dubstep etc.. 'unlistenable'. tee-hee.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismuzz Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 I love using it too, very dramatic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-soar Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 CARDIACS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 [quote name='steve-soar' timestamp='1340655409' post='1707740'] CARDIACS. [/quote] never thought you'd say that, Steve ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthurhenry Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 The first 3 are ascending, the last one descending. That's it, isn't it? Didn't hear anything weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismuzz Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 [quote name='arthurhenry' timestamp='1340657916' post='1707796'] The first 3 are ascending, the last one descending. That's it, isn't it? [/quote] That's what I got too, took me a good few listens though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) [quote name='arthurhenry' timestamp='1340657916' post='1707796'] The first 3 are ascending, the last one descending. That's it, isn't it? Didn't hear anything weird. [/quote] but bear in mind this : 1) you have a 'trained' ear. 2) 'When listening to this sound file, it is best to use equipment with a flat frequency response, so as to avoid spectral distortion. Features that alter the signal in any way, such as spatialization features, should be turned off. Compression algorithms should be avoided, in particular for the stereo illusions. And make sure that the playback amplitude is not too high.' and most people don't listen to music on either basis. (nor are most people bassists) Edited June 25, 2012 by phil.i.stein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 1st and 2nd ascending 3rd and 4th descending where's the answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wil Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 They all sound like they're ascending to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 [quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1340659457' post='1707831'] where's the answer? [/quote] I didn't think there was one, just how the individual perceives the relevant intervals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) [quote name='risingson' timestamp='1340654372' post='1707720'] Stravinsky was a big fan, plus everyone and anyone who came after him and took great influence from him. Leonard Bernstein, John Williams spring to mind. [/quote] Dominant 7th chord, minor 7th b5 chord, 7th b9 chord, and others. You hear these intervals all the time these days, well in Jazz and Cinematic film scores based on the big Symphony Orchestras, and of course wrong notes in Pub Rock Bands... Garry Edited June 25, 2012 by lowdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) [quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1340659457' post='1707831'] 1st and 2nd ascending 3rd and 4th descending where's the answer? [/quote] just listened on headphones. i got exactly the opposite. Paradox indeed. Edited June 25, 2012 by phil.i.stein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-soar Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 12&4 going down, 3 going up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) [quote name='steve-soar' timestamp='1340661681' post='1707879'] 12&4 going down, 3 going up. [/quote] Me to.. Danny Elfman & Homer like the Tritone Paradox. [URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/59/742972801.jpg/][IMG]http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/9943/742972801.jpg[/IMG][/URL] Garry Edited June 25, 2012 by lowdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-soar Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 [quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1340661975' post='1707892'] Me to.. Danny Elfman & Homer like the Tritone Paradox. Garry [/quote]So what have we won? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 [quote name='steve-soar' timestamp='1340662445' post='1707906'] So what have we won? [/quote] Tea for two @ the Savoy. Garry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-soar Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 [quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1340662690' post='1707915'] Tea for two @ the Savoy. Garry [/quote]Hehe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) i'm loving this thread ! reading the Wiki link in the OP, small speakers have difficulty reproducing the fundamental, as do computers. now i want to know the correct answer, if there is one. i'm getting 1&2 down, 3&4 up on headphones (quality sennheisers) then i tried on JBL studio monitors .. 1 down, 2,3,4 up ! damn ! edit, arggh ! i'm off to bed, all confused-like .. Edited June 25, 2012 by phil.i.stein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 To me it's down down up up, quite clearly, but others obviously differ. But surely whatever 'flat response' equipment you listen to it on your ears are far from a flat response and will vary with age and the amount of abuse they've had etc. On top of that is how you listen to things. As bass players perhaps we tend to listen to the lower harmonics rather than the higher ones. I'v always thought that part of the reason some people like a particular piece of music and others don't is that, internally, they are hearing different things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 ah, just about to fall asleep, still thinking about this, and remembered the bit about the 'stereo illusion' (regardless of it being a mono recording) will try again tomorrow, through one speaker and using just one ear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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