2x12 vs 4x10

[chris_b]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1341227858' post='1715321']
....But isn't that an assumption that "they should know"?....

....Snake oil can be a powerful thing & if someone's been told that a 4x10 & 1x15 rig is the best & that's all they ever use, how would they know any different?....
[/quote]

And the assumption of the "amateur experts" that they know best because they read the book is an arrogance that I don't accept.

There you go. Denigrating the experience of others and belittling their opinions when you haven't heard them.

Snake oil comes at us from all directions, as it did when I was being told that mixed speaker sizes couldn't work.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1341233357' post='1715422']


And the assumption of the "amateur experts" that they know best because they read the book is an arrogance that I don't accept.

There you go. Denigrating the experience of others and belittling their opinions when you haven't heard them.

Snake oil comes at us from all directions, as it did when I was being told that mixed speaker sizes couldn't work.
[/quote]

Solid post!

[xgsjx]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1341233357' post='1715422']
And the assumption of the "amateur experts" that they know best because they read the book is an arrogance that I don't accept.

There you go. Denigrating the experience of others and belittling their opinions when you haven't heard them.

Snake oil comes at us from all directions, as it did when I was being told that mixed speaker sizes couldn't work.
[/quote]

I think you might have slightly misinterpreted what I was saying.
If someone's A/Bd different rigs & says "X" is better than "Y" because of "N", then their experience & advice is most likely going to be solid (I think that's the right word I'm looking for).
But if it's someone who's only ever used the same style of rig states that "I was told by X that you need a 4x10 & a 1x15" & have only ever used that, why would you take it as gospel?

I don't see where I denigrated anyone's experience. I've never said mixing speaker sizes doesn't work, only that it can be unpredictable.

[discreet]

My 2p: I always believed mixed speaker sizes/ratings to be a no-no as well... seems quite logical to me, but through necessity I used an ABM 410 and a BFM J12 together at rehearsal recently and I have to say it sounded extremely immense - and that's the bottom line, isn't it? LOGIC > WINDOW

Edited July 2, 2012 by discreet

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1341234575' post='1715456']
My 2p: I always believed mixed speaker sizes/ratings to be a no-no as well... seems quite logical to me, but through necessity I used an ABM 410 and a BFM J12 together at rehearsal recently and I have to say it sounded extremely immense - and that's the bottom line, isn't it? LOGIC > WINDOW
[/quote]
I think some people lose sight of the fact that it isn't that mixing speaker sizes or different manufacturers isn't ALWAYS going to be negative it can simply be 'unpredictable'... which means that sometimes it does work but it isn't a certainty. Keeping the same size driver from the same manufacturer will give more predictability; the example of an ABM 410 and a BFM J12 could have been equally as good if you'd used a pair of ABM 410 or a pair of BFM J12, equally neither may have worked for you as the tone mightn't have been what you wanted but it would have been more consistant.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1341226173' post='1715288']
I spent the first 2 years on BC being told that mixing speakers sizes definitely never worked, when I was getting a great sound out of a mixed size rig![/quote]Show us the posts that said that. I know I never have, nor has Alex or any other qualified engineers. What we have said is that the results with mixed drivers/cabs are unpredictable, while with matched cabs you know what you'll get.

[quote]How can any of us assume we know exactly how a manufacturer’s cabs were designed[/quote]Having designed many of them myself I don't have to assume anything. Designing cabs for a living I know that most manufacturers priorities are, in order of importance:
1. Profit margin
2. Graphics
3. Performance
# 3 never takes precedence over #s 1 and 2.
And I know that the only reason manufacturers push the concept of mixed drivers/cabs is because the average player thinks that there's some benefit to doing so. When faced with the options of saying "Don't do that" and potentially losing a sale to the next guy or giving the masses what they want, whether it's the best option or not, the almighty buck/pound is the ultimate arbitor.
[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1341234575' post='1715456']
My 2p: I always believed mixed speaker sizes/ratings to be a no-no as well... seems quite logical to me, but through necessity I used an ABM 410 and a BFM J12 together at rehearsal recently and I have to say it sounded extremely immense - and that's the bottom line, isn't it?
[/quote]Virtually any two cabs together will sound better than either alone. What you don't know is whether you'd have had a better result with two ABM410 or two J12.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[discreet]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1341238702' post='1715549']
What you don't know is whether you'd have had a better result with two ABM410 or two J12.[/quote]

Very good. I shall try to find out. It does mean buying another ABM and/or making another J12, though...

[chris_b]

Bill, I’m not dragging other people into this. My "beef" usually isn't with qualified engineers anyway.

Would Alex be happy that his mixed speaker size rigs are being described as unpredictable? I would guess that he designed them in the certainty that they were entirely predicable and intended them to sound exactly as they do.

My mixed Mesa Boogie rig had a great sound in a very predictable way which is why I’m happy to be a dissenting voice on this subject. If my rig can sound good then other rigs can too. Others should be aware of this.

Bill, you put [i]most[/i] in your post. I would imagine many manufacturers are as you describe so I can believe “many” could do better, but when we are told (not necessarily by you) [i]all[/i] I’ll start to disbelieve what I’m being told.

“Virtually any two cabs together will sound better than either alone.” I’m happy with that. Whether a player is happy with 100% of what they could achieve or just 50% is their perfectly valid choice.

[chris_b]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1341243138' post='1715616']
....I shall try to find out. It does mean buying another ABM and/or making another J12, though....
[/quote]

Or, if they sound that good together, you could do the obvious and save your cash.

[discreet]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1341243502' post='1715628']
Or, if they sound that good together, you could do the obvious and save your cash.[/quote]

It would certainly be the path of least resistance. Or do a bit of borrowing.

[TG Flatline]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1341233357' post='1715422']
And the assumption of the "amateur experts" that they know best because they read the book is an arrogance that I don't accept.

There you go. Denigrating the experience of others and belittling their opinions when you haven't heard them.

Snake oil comes at us from all directions, as it did when I was being told that mixed speaker sizes couldn't work.
[/quote]

That's a slightly hostile post, and ironically quite arrogant in itself. Everything I've posted has been based on my own experiences and not because I've "read the book" - I haven't. I'm not a speaker manufacturer or an "amateur expert". But arming yourself with a bit of knowledge to try things that are designed to sound better seems like a good idea to me. If what I've posted has come across the way that you have described it then, with respect, I don't think you read it properly or I maybe could have been a bit clearer, either way, calm down lad.

[dincz]

Just a thought. Correct me if I'm wrong but the potential problems with mixing cabs are to do with dispersion and comb filtering. So although you may hear absolute perfection from where you stand, it could be quite a different story at various off-axis positions. No problem if you're running through a PA and your on-stage sound is good from where you are, but without PA the audience (or some of them, depending on where they're standing) might be hearing a totally horrendous result.

The point being that even if your experience tells you a particular combination sounds good, that doesn't necessarily mean the audience had the same experience.

Edited July 2, 2012 by dincz

[chris_b]

[quote name='TG Flatline' timestamp='1341245655' post='1715670']
....That's a slightly hostile post....
[/quote]

Not really. There are more "hostile" posts flying around all the time.

I'm not posting about you, why would you think that? I'm trying to keep personalities out of it.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1341243138' post='1715616']
Very good. I shall try to find out. It does mean buying another ABM and/or making another J12, though...
[/quote]That's the issue, not knowing without the trying, and not having the means to do the trying.

[discreet]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1341256509' post='1715969']
That's the issue, not knowing without the trying, and not having the means to do the trying.[/quote]

How true - I'll most likely buy a second ABM, if only for the fact that it'll cost me half as much as making another J12.
I'm 99% certain that two J12s would sound far superior. I just don't have the time or the loot, unfortunately.

[JTUK]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1341226173' post='1715288']
I spent the first 2 years on BC being told that mixing speakers sizes definitely never worked, when I was getting a great sound out of a mixed size rig!
....................
[/quote]

I think this is because people can read too much on forums and don't have their own opinions on things or have never tried it so need someone else to either endorse one or establish one for them.
Some people spend too much time reading and not enough time actually doing much musically... or are just plain oblivious

[Marvin]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1341261163' post='1716116']
I think this is because people can read too much on forums and don't have their own opinions on things or have never tried it so need someone else to either endorse one or establish one for them.
Some people spend too much time reading and not enough time actually doing much musically... or are just plain oblivious
[/quote]

Unfortunately the impractical nature of not enough time or money to try numerous combinations means people will seek advice from other people's experience on forums. If that weren't the case this place just simply wouldn't exist.

The threads regarding the technical aspects of amps and cabs always get so heated. It need not be.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1341263442' post='1716170']

Unfortunately the impractical nature of not enough time or money to try numerous combinations means people will seek advice from other people's experience on forums. If that weren't the case this place just simply wouldn't exist.

The threads regarding the technical aspects of amps and cabs always get so heated. It need not be.
[/quote]
Sure..... You can generally tell who knows what .... Recycled guff or hand-ons knowledge, experience or thinking.
You don't all need to agree on things but whilst the I net is great for spreading knowledge it is also great for perpetuating crap. And forums can also excel at this with cliques and clubs as well being genuinely a very uselful resource. IMO

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='dincz' timestamp='1341247347' post='1715719']
Just a thought. Correct me if I'm wrong but the potential problems with mixing cabs are to do with dispersion and comb filtering.
[/quote]The main issue is the different phase responses of different cabs. When combined they may work OK, or they may not, and there's no way for the user to predict it. With identical cabs there are no issues.
The theory behind mixed cabs, with tens and fifteens being by far the most popular configuration, is based on the notion that fifteens go lower, tens go higher, and that by combining them you get the 'best of both worlds'. The fly in that ointment is that fifteens don't necessarily go lower than tens, and tens don't necessarily go higher than fifteens.
The only inherent difference is that tens do have wider dispersion in the mids and highs. But when tens are placed side by side their dispersion in the mids is halved, resulting in narrower dispersion than a fifteen, and the highs are combed. And where output capability is concerned one fifteen can't match four tens, so the ubiquitous 115/410 combination makes no sense from any perspective.

[ezbass]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1341403116' post='1718332']With identical cabs there are no issues.
[/quote]Normally no issues, I had to reverse the wiring on a cab from a prominent manufacturer once because when added to my existing one it was out of phase. Easily fixed, but a nuisance.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1341401618' post='1718298']
Sure..... You can generally tell who knows what .... Recycled guff or hand-ons knowledge, experience or thinking.
You don't all need to agree on things but whilst the I net is great for spreading knowledge it is also great for perpetuating crap. And forums can also excel at this with cliques and clubs as well being genuinely a very uselful resource. IMO
[/quote]

...you mean like maple fingerboards sounding 'bright'.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1341410777' post='1718545']
...you mean like maple fingerboards sounding 'bright'.
[/quote]Actually rosewood and ebony are brighter, being more dense than maple. More dense body woods are also brighter and sustain longer than less dense varieties. Here also there's nothing the least bit magical about it, it's simple physics. But as Clarke said any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguisable from magic, even when that technology is as simple as a block of wood. If you're a luthier you understand the technology. If not you may not.

[dincz]

[quote name='ezbass' timestamp='1341408255' post='1718475']
Normally no issues, I had to reverse the wiring on a cab from a prominent manufacturer once because when added to my existing one it was out of phase. Easily fixed, but a nuisance.
[/quote]
I suspect the answer will be no, but is there a standard for this e.g. +ve on the tip moves the cone out?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='dincz' timestamp='1341413832' post='1718602']
I suspect the answer will be no, but is there a standard for this e.g. +ve on the tip moves the cone out?
[/quote]The standard is outward excursion with a positive voltage applied to the tip on a 1/4" plug or the + pole of a Speakon.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1341413594' post='1718594']
Actually rosewood and ebony are brighter, being more dense than maple. More dense body woods are also brighter and sustain longer than less dense varieties. Here also there's nothing the least bit magical about it, it's simple physics. But as Clarke said any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguisable from magic, even when that technology is as simple as a block of wood. If you're a luthier you understand the technology. If not you may not.
[/quote]

Kind of my point, Maurice (although I challenge anyone to hear any difference even though I'm not a luthier and may not understand the technology - I'll stop, another point for/from another thread!)