Carol Kaye

[Coilte]

[quote name='steve-soar' timestamp='1341006997' post='1712896']
Shut the f*** up, you silly ones, she is one of the greatest bass guitarists, ever. I'd like to see your back catalogues.
[/quote]

Lighten up !!.......just poking a little harmless fun. I am a great fan of Carol Kaye. She has had an amazing career, and is still going strong.

[paul_5]

She may or may not have played on all of those records, but that's not important.

If you can find her "Modern Electric Bass" tutor books then I guarantee you will learn loads, I know I did (and still do).

Edited June 30, 2012 by paul_5

[Stacker]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1341008425' post='1712926']
...in the most depraved fashion.
[/quote]

Spill the beans..

[Coilte]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1341046188' post='1713095']


If you can find her "Modern Electric Bass" tutor books then I guarantee you will learn loads, I know I did (and still do).
[/quote]


All her books and DVD's are available on her site.


[url="http://carolkaye.com/catalog/"]http://carolkaye.com/catalog/[/url]

[paul torch]

This may be an obvious question to some of you but, she seems to have a strip of tape across the bridge, is that for muting purposes?

[Roland Rock]

She's fantastic. Check out this badass pick playing:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlHMpOypzFg[/media]

She's friendly too, and has been gracious enough to reply to an e-mail with info on some songs she played on. Legend.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Roland Rock

[Coilte]

[quote name='paul torch' timestamp='1341046781' post='1713107']
This may be an obvious question to some of you but, she seems to have a strip of tape across the bridge, is that for muting purposes?
[/quote]

Yes. She talks about it in depth on her web site.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1341015549' post='1712985']
I have to confess that besides seeing her name appear on BassChat occasionally, I have been largely unaware of her. However, I know what I shall be trying tomorrow. I don't wanna be that plodding UK player no more!
Anyone know where I might start to go about learning some of that chordal stuff? Unfortunately I learned all my walking stuff from a beginner's Blues book when I first started and, being a metal player, mostly, never really go around to trying to expend on it. Also, my theory knowledge is woeful to non-existent.

P.S. Even is she isn't really a "proper" Bass player...
[/quote]

I think this is a fundemental issue. Carol was brought up on jazz, as were a lot of musicians of the time (esp. Jamerson!) and you can see she knows a bit. Like you, I'm envious.

Many musicians nowadays are brought up on pop/rock etc and so do not have that background. Consider tv theme tunes, back until even the 80s most were jazz based (especially the comedies - even Corrie is a fab piece!) but nowadays we get Oasis etc.

Its liberating that those without training etc can make worthy music but not surprising that many do not have any theory. Carol is old school and, in my opinion, all the better for it, there's definitely nothing wrong with you wanting to know more and please be encouraged to go and learn. (Most musicians end up picking up and having to know a certain amount of theory along the way if they start to get serious with their recording/composition etc and need to communicate to other musicians)

[Coilte]

[quote name='tedgilley' timestamp='1341015464' post='1712983']
She was hot, but has anyone tried to read any of her materials? All but impossible.
[/quote]

I'm inclined to agree with this. I have a few of her tutorial books, and while there is no doubt about the content being second to none, I sometimes find it hard going. I think this is due to the general presentation.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1341046782' post='1713108']
She's fantastic. Check out this badass pick playing:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlHMpOypzFg[/media]
[/quote]

To put this in context, I gather that they were expected to nail it within 3 takes on a record session and 1 or 2 takes on a film session. Any more than that and you weren't called again.

No pressure then!

[4 Strings]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1341048663' post='1713144']
To put this in context, I gather that they were expected to nail it within 3 takes on a record session and 1 or 2 takes on a film session. Any more than that and you weren't called again.

No pressure then!
[/quote]

Pros.

[Geek99]

[quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1341007779' post='1712911']
Hey, she was a bit of a looker when she was young. I mean, turning the tables for a moment, if you were a woman, would you fancy, say, BB King as he is now? But he's still a legend.
[/quote]
I agree, carol was hot with a capital "ouch" back then

[Stu-khag]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1341046188' post='1713095']
She may or may not have played on all of those records, but that's not important.

If you can find her "Modern Electric Bass" tutor books then I guarantee you will learn loads, I know I did (and still do).
[/quote]

A colleague of mine recently interviewed her for a programme they are making (about a musician she worked with, won't reveal who until its finished). He came back with copies of her books (signed) and cds of her basslines for me which I was pretty chuffed about. From what he told me she does a lot of online tutoring via skype these days and I'm sure you can find this info on her site.
this is my fave pic of her- totally surrounded by blokes, not a woman to be seen and no doubt they all respected her for what matters- musicianship.
[url="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.carolkaye.com/www/assets/carolkaye_1974-lib.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.carolkaye.com/www/library/index.htm&h=262&w=300&sz=22&tbnid=iYo_5pW__3LdoM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=103&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dcarol%2Bkaye%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=carol+kaye&usg=__hW-j8XLLkuF9V25pl3uu0vWz8Lo=&docid=Ft8BI8yiVS-PcM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=P77xT7SoI8TE0QW3t4TODQ&ved=0CGcQ9QEwAw&dur=420"]http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.carolkaye.com/www/assets/carolkaye_1974-lib.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.carolkaye.com/www/library/index.htm&h=262&w=300&sz=22&tbnid=iYo_5pW__3LdoM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=103&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dcarol%2Bkaye%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=carol+kaye&usg=__hW-j8XLLkuF9V25pl3uu0vWz8Lo=&docid=Ft8BI8yiVS-PcM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=P77xT7SoI8TE0QW3t4TODQ&ved=0CGcQ9QEwAw&dur=420[/url]

[SteveK]

[quote name='John Schoen' timestamp='1341031895' post='1713013']
She claims to have played on many of the Motown hits that were credited to James Jamerson despite evidence and witnesses saying that Jamerson played those bass parts. She is a very good player, but I can't stand her because she wants to portray herself as more important than she already is.
[/quote]
Fact is, parts get replaced all the time without the musicians knowledge. There will (quite possibly) have been occasions when Carol Kaye replaced Jamersons part, and there will (quite possibly) have been occasions when Jamerson will have replaced Carol Kaye's part. Sessions were/are often scrapped and started again, and the musician might be none-the-wiser.

[chris_b]

Read Bob Babbitt's web site, about who played what on what and when.

Edited July 2, 2012 by chris_b

[lowdown]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1341046782' post='1713108']
She's friendly too, and has been gracious enough to reply to an e-mail with info on some songs she played on. Legend.
[/quote]

She replied to a couple of my Emails also.
A very acid witted person and a top top player.

There seems to be more and more [Google] Info popping up these days regarding the LA scoring stage Musician from that golden age.
Max Bennett is worth checking out, seems he did his bit as well...


[b] As sideman[/b]
[list]
[*]Marvin Gaye
[*]Barbra Streisand ([i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoney_End"]Stoney End[/url][/i])
[*]Anthony Newly
[*]Paul Anka
[*]Elvis Presley
[*]Shawn Phillips
[*]Four Tops
[*]Nelson Riddle
[*]Frank Sinatra
[*]Frank Sinatra,Jr
[*]Frank Zappa (5 Albums )
[*][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Charles"]Ray Charles[/url]
[*][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleo_Laine"]Cleo Laine[/url] ([i]Porgy & Bess[/i])
[*][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Night_Blooming_Jazzmen&action=edit&redlink=1"]The Night Blooming Jazzmen[/url]
[*][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seals_%26_Croft"]Seals & Croft[/url]
[*][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Williams_(jazz_singer)"]Joe Williams[/url]
[*]Ella Fitzgerald ([i]Live from Rome[/i], etc.)
[*][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Colombier"]Michel Colombier[/url]
[*][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quincy_Jones"]Quincy Jones[/url]
[*][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Eckstine"]Billy Eckstine[/url]
[*][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_Rogers"]Kenny Rogers[/url]
[*][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beach_Boys"]The Beach Boys[/url]
[*][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carole_King"]Carole King[/url]
[*][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Williams_(saxophonist)"]Paul Williams[/url][sup][[i][url="http://toolserver.org/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dab_solver.py?page=Max_Bennett_(musician)&editintro=Template:Disambiguation_needed/editintro&client=Template:Dn"]disambiguation needed[/url][/i]][/sup]
[*]The Fifth Dimension
[*]First Edition
[*][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steely_Dan"]Steely Dan[/url] ([i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aja_(album)"]Aja[/url][/i])
[*][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Spector"]Phil Spector[/url]
[*][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Baez"]Joan Baez[/url]
[*][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Temptations"]The Temptations[/url]
[*][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joni_Mitchell"]Joni Mitchell[/url] ([i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_and_Spark"]Court and Spark[/url][/i], [i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_of_Aisles"]Miles of Aisles[/url][/i], [i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hissing_of_Summer_Lawns"]Hissing of Summer Lawns[/url][/i], [i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hejira_(album)"]Hejira[/url][/i])
[*][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crusaders"]The Crusaders[/url] ([i]Scratch[/i], etc.)
[*]Tom Scott & The L.A. Express
[*]L.A. Express
[*]Victor Feldman
[*]O.C. Smith
[*]Judy Collins
[*]Michael Franks
[*]John Williams
[*]Henry Mancini
[*]Lalo Shifrin
[*]Charley Fox
[*]Artie Butler
[*]Ralph Carmichael
[*]Jack Nietche
[*]Percy Faith
[*]H.B. Barnum - Motown
[*]Peggy Lee
[*]Stan Kenton
[*]Sauter-Finegan
[*]Terry Gibbs
[*]Celine Dion
[*]Jose Inglesies
[*]Bill Holman
[*]Grass Roots
[*]David Foster
[*]Michael Mcdonald
[*]Jose Feliciano
[*]Friends Of Distinction
[*]Jimmy Rowles
[*]George Harrison (Dark Horse)
[/list][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3]
[b]With [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Roberts"]Howard Roberts[/url][/b][/size][/font][/color][list]
[*][i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antelope_Freeway"]Antelope Freeway[/url][/i] (Impulse!, 1971)
[/list][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3]
[b]With [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lalo_Schifrin"]Lalo Schifrin[/url][/b][/size][/font][/color][list]
[*][i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There%27s_a_Whole_Lalo_Schifrin_Goin%27_On"]There's a Whole Lalo Schifrin Goin' On[/url][/i] (Dot, 1968)
[*][i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannix_(album)"]Mannix[/url][/i] (Paramount, 1968)
[*][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullitt_(soundtrack)"][i]Bullitt[/i] (soundtrack)[/url] (Warner Bros., 1968)
[*][i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Requiem"]Rock Requiem[/url][/i] (Verve, 1971)
[*][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enter_the_Dragon_(soundtrack)"][i]Enter the Dragon[/i] (soundtrack)[/url] (Warner Bros., 1973)
[/list][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3]
[b]With [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A1bor_Szab%C3%B3"]Gábor Szabó[/url] and [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Thiele"]Bob Thiele[/url][/b][/size][/font][/color][list]
[*][i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_My_Fire_(G%C3%A1bor_Szab%C3%B3_album)"]Light My Fire[/url][/i] (Impulse!, 1967)
[/list][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3]
'[i]*[/i]Tv, Film, & Motion Picture Sound Tracks Written By:[/size][/font][/color][list]
[*][i]Michele Legrande[/i]
[*][i]Nelson Riddle[/i]
[*][i]Michele Columbie[/i]
[*][i]Quincy Jones[/i]
[*][i]Tom Scott[/i]
[*][i]John Williams[/i]
[*][i]Henry Mancini[/i]
[*][i]Lalo Shifrin[/i]
[*][i]Johnny Mandel[/i]
[*][i]Charlie Fox[/i]
[*][i]Artie Butler[/i]
[*][i]Billy Byers[/i]
[*][i]Elmer Bernstien[/i]
[*][i]Michael Melvoin[/i]
[/list]


Garry

[merello]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1341248498' post='1715748']
Read Bob Babbitt's web site, about who played what on what and when.
[/quote]

[color=#000000]“Who’s Playing Bass”[/color]

[left][color=#000000] You may read someone’s resume and see that they had played on certain songs yet someone else takes claim to playing on one of the songs (or more than one) or you actually read somewhere that it is another musician playing on a particular song (songs). Why does this happen? Well there are several possibilities to talk about. I guess the first one is that the resume is a lie! Secondly, there were a lot of albums released with no credits on the records, and also a lot of sessions did not go thru the union so as a result there were no contracts and the contracts would have the name of the players on them.[/color][/left]


[left][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, Arial, sans-serif][size=3] Another thing that may happen is that the song is recorded and then it is re-recorded at another time (Sometimes later that same day or the next day). And then still another, the possibility of being overdubbed on. When you are constantly day after day for years playing on records it can be hard to remember everything you played on. It got to be like a factory job in Detroit and when we knew there was no session’s going on we would hide out at the golf course! I have been told thru the years or personally heard other musicians who have talked about records that I know they did not play on. Some people may just believe them. I know a musician who claimed he played on records that I know he did not, yet when someone confronted him and asked him if he really had played on those records he replied. ”I would do or say anything to put food on the table for my kids”.[/size][/font][/color][/left]


[left][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, Arial, sans-serif][size=3] Here is an example of something that happened. One of the ex-employers at the Detroit musicians union claims that at some point in the early 80’s they shredded the contracts because they were running out of room where they stored them?? Then when the TV and Movie industry started using the songs for background music the film companies needed to see a copy of the contract before they would pay anyone. Well in Detroit they made up what they called mock contracts and assumed certain players had played on these records. As far as the Bass in the case of Motown they just thought Jamerson had played on these records and put his name on the mock contracts. Then they would submit them to the film companies and also put them on file. Now if someone were to read those mock contracts they would think that the players named on the contracts were the ones playing on the record. One record that I played on was “Mercy Mercy” from the Marvin Gaye album “What’s Going On”. It was used as background music for several films and commercials. There were no rhythm section contract‘s for that album so someone at the Detroit union put Jamerson’s name on the mock contract and not only were the residuals paid to him but if someone would read that contract they would think that he also played on that record.[/size][/font][/color][/left]


[left][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, Arial, sans-serif][size=3] How about this; The song “War” by Edwin Starr, it has been used on 6 on 7 different movies as well as the theme song for a popular TV show. Guess what? There are two contracts the union received, one for the title “War” and one for the title “War Part Two”. Having played on the Edwin Starr record and hearing it on films and TV but not getting any residuals I called the national union to find out why? They told me about the two contracts and that some of the musicians that were on “War Part Two” (The artist turned out to be the Temptations) claimed that was the version that was the Edwin Starr version, and get this, the contracts had no artist listed on them so the union went and paid the musicians on the “War Part Two” contract. Now, the names on both of the contracts were almost the same, but my name was on “War” and Jamerson’s name was on “War Part Two”. The union faxed me both of the contracts and on the contracts were the dates they were recorded. On the “War” contract that my name was on the date was May 1970. The date on “War Part Two” was September 1970. I have a box set of Motown songs that also has a booklet enclosed with the records. In this booklet along with the Artist and the title of song they also give the date of release. “War” by Edwin Starr was released in June 1970 but guess what, the union claims that Motown waited to file their contracts and that this possibly could have happened to this record? So now they don’t want to pay on either contract. Again if they do not determine which contract is the Edwin Starr contract someone could think Jamerson played on that record.[/size][/font][/color][/left]


[left][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, Arial, sans-serif][size=3] Also, on the Spinners box set release, they give credits on each individual cut, but for the Motown song “It’s a Shame” they say the musicians “probably were” (Jamerson did play Bass) and another cut from Detroit’s Pac 3 studio has no credits, and yeah you guessed it (I am positive it was the Dennis Coffey road band that Andrew Smith and I were in). Now if a session was re-cut or someone came in to overdub and they played the exact thing that was played on the original (maybe better feel or better execution) and the sound was close to you it may be hard to tell the difference, but I think every player can tell their own sound and they have their signature licks that they play. [/size][/font][/color][/left]


[left][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, Arial, sans-serif][size=3] Also at times the arranger or the producer may not like the overdub and get someone else to overdub or go back to the original. This also happens at times with re-cutting the whole track. Also I worked for some producers that were so much into drugs that the possibility of them forgetting who actually played on the records they produced, exist. And some producers and arrangers were so busy they don’t really remember. Now here are some things that I personally experienced to show you what I am talking about; “Cool Jerk”. I’m in a bar across from Golden World studios where Cool Jerk as recorded. That studio later became Motown Studio B. In this bar with me was Jamerson, we did hang out a lot together, In the bar was a great sounding bubble jukebox! It started playing “Cool Jerk”. Now Jamerson walked over to the jukebox and leaned down in front of it and at the same time waved me over next to him at the juke box. He said to me, “Listen to that Bass,” I said “Yeah, what about it.” He stood up and pounded his hands on his chest and said “Moi”Me, that’s me”. I said “Nooooo, that’s me.” Well you know what he said, “They must have re-cut the record.” So there you go, if by some chance he did tell anyone that he played on that record I’m sure they would have believed him. No credits on those records hurt everyone.[/size][/font][/color][/left]


[left][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, Arial, sans-serif][size=3]. [/size][/font][/color][/left]

[left][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, Arial, sans-serif][size=3] Also for the Rare Earth group I did an album cut and also the single “Losing You”[/size][/font][/color][/left]

[left][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, Arial, sans-serif][size=3]No credits! The group’s Bass player got the credits and similar situations with the first P- Funk album (Westbound Records) and the Flaming Embers (Holland, Dozier, Holland) occurred. Also I did an overdub on a Wilson Pickett record “Don’t Knock my Love” that they gave credits to the original Bass player on a compilation album. When I talked to the original Bass player about it he told me “No way.” That he is the Bass player on that song. There were two producers I have been trying to contact. Maybe they can shed some light on this? I have found out one has passed away and the other no one seems to know where he his? The record “Touch me in the Morning” by Diana Ross was one that I had overdubbed the Bass on at Motown Studio B. Yet on a Diana Ross greatest hit album they gave credits to and Los Angeles Bassist because that is where the original track was cut. If there were a contract filed in L.A. it would probably have the Los Angeles Bass players name on it. One thing I remember about that overdub. That was the first time I ever took my wife to the studio and when that record became a hit I wanted her to come to all of my sessions because I thought she was a good luck charm! [/size][/font][/color][/left]


[left][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, Arial, sans-serif][size=3] Another record cut in Somerville, New Jersey at Tony Camillo’s Venture Sound Studio (Tony was a producer, arranger who worked in Detroit for Holland, Dozier, Holland where I met him) The record we recorded there was Gladys Knight & the Pips “Midnight Train to Georgia.” Now the original session had 3 Guitars, 2 Keyboards, Drums, Percussion and Bass. After we recorded it Tony called everyone back to record it again because the initial recording did not feel right. Well, the same band recorded it a second time and guess what? The following Sunday Tony called Andrew Smith and myself along with Guitarist Jeff Mironov to yet again record the song as the feel was still not right yet. The three of us along with Tony playing a scratch piano part (he later overdubbed the piano, not one of the original players, I think the piano player was Barry Miles) cut the track and guess what? Yep, that was the track that became the record! That song won the Grammy for song of the year! Now if you play on a record that wins a Grammy you get paid again! Well I worked with a couple of the players that played on the original session and they got paid also. There was a contract filed on the original session with all of the original names. Now it would be hard to tell those guys that they did not play on the record after they got paid for the Grammy. [/size][/font][/color][/left]


[left][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, Arial, sans-serif][size=3] Another story about that record, when I moved to Nashville and was pursuing work I was told by most of the producers that they wanted to see my resume. Now the album that “Midnight Train to Georgia was on had no credits. What’s new? So a producer that I had sent my resume to called me and said, I see that your resume say’s that you played on “Midnight Train to Georgia?” I said yes I did, and then he said to me “I went out to buy the album with that song on it and did not see your name on it, how do I know you are playing on it?” Any Bass player could have laid claim to that song. Andrew Smith and I played on several records in New York where either credits were given to someone else or we just did not get any credits. “Just Don’t Want to be Lonely,” Main Ingredient. “Kiss and Say Goodbye,’ Manhattans. No credits! In fact there is a CD out with that song along with other songs they recorded. Every song on that album gives credits except, yeah you guessed it, “Kiss and Say Goodbye”!! [/size][/font][/color][/left]


[left][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, Arial, sans-serif][size=3] The doorbell rang one day and a Gold album and a Platinum Single were sent to me. We also played on a Jim Croce hit called “I Got a Name”. Guess what?? The album lists other musicians as the players. About that record, when we had recorded that song Andrew and I were staying together in New Brunswick, New Jersey until we moved our families to the East Coast and not even one week after we recorded that song we heard it on the radio and loved the sound of our instruments, the mix, and thought it sounded great!! [/size][/font][/color][/left]


[left][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, Arial, sans-serif][size=3] Another situation that happened to me was the first Talking Heads album.[/size][/font][/color][/left]

[left][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, Arial, sans-serif][size=3]I overdubbed the Bass parts, played with a pick. The sound was exactly like the parts on the record. They need the same notes but with a better feel and better execution. Yeah, no credits. The producers did not even tell the group. Another record I overdubbed 5 (five) songs on was Roberta Flack’s “Blue Lights in the Basement.” Among those 5 songs I overdubbed the hit “Close to You”, but guess what? Yeah, no credits. The album gives credits to three other Bass players, (one of them was even mentioned twice) again one day my doorbell rang and a Gold Record was sent to me for that record. [/size][/font][/color][/left]


[left][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, Arial, sans-serif][size=3] Now I want to say that every record that I have claimed to play on I really feel in my heart and soul that I played on these records and when I hear these songs I can visualize the sessions and remember certain things that happened in the studio. “Tears of a Clown,” I only did a couple of sessions for Smokey Robinson and I remember that record as being one of them. Yet I have been told that Jamerson is given credits for this record. How could I forget the descending Bass line in “Signed Sealed and Delivered” and the few signature licks, along with Eddie Willis playing the Electric Sitar (the first time I ever saw one on a session). Yet Michael Henderson is laying claim to that one. One thing that I want to say that if I had played on a hit record for any artist and I also played live for them I would be proud to play the Bass line that I played just like the record or as close to the record that I can get. Yet my Bass player friend Phil Chen sent me a tape of a live Stevie Wonder concert and Michael Henderson was the Bass player. When Stevie did “Signed Sealed and Delivered” the Bass part played on that tape was no where like the record.[/size][/font][/color][/left]


[left][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, Arial, sans-serif][size=3] The “Jackson 5” records; we recorded a numerous amount of sessions for them in Detroit, but the hits are said to have been recorded in Los Angeles? It is hard after all the years that have gone by that all of a sudden you hear that other Bass players are getting credit for some of your work. If it is possible that those few songs that are in question that there were re-cuts or overdubs I will have to live with that. But a Bass player in New York once said to me, “I know what records I played on.” [/size][/font][/color][/left]


[left][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, Arial, sans-serif][size=3]Bob Babbitt[/size][/font][/color][/left]


[left][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, Arial, sans-serif][size=3] Chris Jisi from Bass Player magazine recently told me that Michael Henderson admitted that he had played on only the live version of “Signed Sealed and Delivered.” [/size][/font][/color][/left]



[color=#000000]Back to top

Back to Articles Menu




Copyright Bob Babbitt. All rights reserved. [/color]

Edited July 3, 2012 by merello

[merello]

And as a counterpoint:

[b] Click [url="http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html#new"]Here[/url] for the Newest update[/b]

[b] Jamerson Info: Who Played on "I was Made to Love Her" [url="http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html#drlicks"]CLICK HERE[/url][/b]

A list of Jamerson's[url="http://www.bassland.net/jamersonhits.htm"] Greatest Hits [/url]
[color=#000000][font=Arial][size=1]
[size="+2"]T[/size]his Picture of James Jamerson is courtesy of Phil Chen, former bassist with Rod Stewart and a dedicated Jamerson fan. I was at a private party in L.A. for the debut of "Standing in the Shadows of Motown" ( ISBN#: 0-88188-882-6 ) and a lot of Motown people and quite a few of the Bass players that took part in the project were there (it took place at Ray Parker Jr.'s Studio in the San Fernando Valley). Phil pulled me to the side and presented me with this photo. Most of the published copies of this photo are in B&W or an artist's rendering (the Cover of Standing in the Shadows of Motown).[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Arial][size=1]
The next week there was a public book party at the Bass Center in L.A. I got to play Jamerson's part on What s Going On in the presence of Mrs. Annie Jamerson, James Jr. and The rest of the Family. Afterwards I had a really nice conversation with James' daughter Penny. I also got to play Jamerson's upright which James Jr brought to the affair. It was shortly after that, I traded my four string electric bass for an [url="http://www.bassland.net/urb.html"]upright bass[/url].[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Arial][size=1]
Below is the program from the Memorial service at Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church following Jamerson's death in 1983. Several years ago I was contacted by Robert Russell, (a member of Mt. Zion) who e-mailed me stating that the Minister that presided over the service was Rev. Edward V. Hill not Rev. Edward B. Bass as it states in the program. I spoke to Mrs. Annie Jamerson on 4/16/2001 and in fact Rev. Edward B. Bass had officiated Jamerson's funeral (Rev. Hill was on vacation when Jamerson passed). I always thought it quite fitting that a minister named Bass (although actually pronounced like the ale) presided over James' going home.[/size][/font][/color]
[b] Some Jamerson Stories[/b]
[color=#000000][font=Arial][size=1]
I was in the Musicians union in L.A. while Jamerson was still active around town (1980), "Standing in the Shadows of Motown" tells us he had trouble getting the work he deserved mainly because of the drinking but also because he really wanted to hold on to the past (doing things the way they were done in Detroit, keeping his old flatwound strings etc.).[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Arial][size=1]
He apparently had his daughter Penny (I presume because of the handwriting) make a work for hire notice to go into the union book of musicians available. It outlined his work history. He said he had done and I quote "all the Motown sh*t" which I believe was his way of dealing with the fact that he was not on top anymore and had to seek work rather that it seeking him out. I took the address and phone number and contemplated calling him just to make the connection. It was rumored around BIT that they had Jamerson come over for some teaching and early (bit history) master classes. It was said that he did not do to well at dealing with the students (rough guy from the streets of Detroit vs some green kid asking him dumb questions) and he went away soon after. I was at BIT in 1980 so it could have been a reasonably fresh story. In any event, I had tried to meet Ron Carter in N.Y. and found him to be cold and unsharing ("when are you going to play the REAL Bass"). I did not want to have Jamerson turn out to be that way so, I procrastinated getting in touch with him. Subsequently I never did, Much to my regret now, as he died within 2 years of that time. I was back east at my brother's wedding when Jamerson died. I did not even know he was sick!! Upon my return to L.A. I searched down a copy of the program from the funeral (it appears above) and kept it. It was kind of strange to find out his middle name was Lee and he was born where my mother comes from in South Carolina. Though we are not related, I had the feeling that it was like a part of my family who had departed and the only thing we really had in common was a love for the Bass and the Music. Whenever I think of it I really wish I had taken the plunge and tried to meet him.[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Arial][size=1]
Another story related to Jamerson is when I got to L.A. in 1980 I headed straight for Motown offices on Sunset Blvd and made an application for employment there as a Musician. I can remember the receptionist telling me that this was not the way they hired musicians. I told her to trash my application and forget it and left partially in disgust. Soon after that I took up with this guy at the musicians union named Henry Grant. He had owned a music store/school in L.A. He fronted this big band and I was hot to try out my reading skills (which admittedly were not that good at the time).[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Arial][size=1]
After hanging around their rehearsals for a while Mr. Grant asked me if I could make this particular rehearsal (as the Bassist) for an upcoming gig that they had. I made the rehearsal and was told that the gig was at Dorothy Chandler Pavilion. I had been in town less than a year and had no idea where or what the venue was. I showed up to the Pavilion and was quite surprised to find that it was this ritzy place in Downtown L.A. The affair was a birthday party for the Honorable Ronald Dullums. I loaded up my equipment to the stage, set up and it was time to hit. The announcer said over the P.A. "And now Gil Askey and the Motown Orchestra" It was at that moment that I realized whom I was playing with (all along I thought it was Henry Grant's band. Gil was on tour with the Temptations at the time). Needless to say, I was in shock. There were a lot of the horn players in that band that did most of the L.A. sessions for Motown and/or traveled with the L.A. based Motown acts and I was in Heaven! I was holding down Jamerson's chair!!![/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Arial][size=1]
I also got to play with James Gadson in L.A. and was real honored that he liked my playing. Here was another musician that had played with the man.[/size][/font][/color]
In about 1986 or so, I got a call to do this play (For Heaven Sakes) and the principal writer was Mickey Stevenson who was A&R at Motown during the golden age. I remember taking a picture of Jamerson that appeared in Guitar World Magazine to show him at a rehearsal. He seemed pleased that Jamerson was at that point getting some recognition. The music for that play was pure Motown. I can remember the rehearsals seemed like what "Standing in the shadows of Motown" describes as a recording session at Motown in the early days. The musicians were set up looking at the same chord/Melody sheet and we started to play. If there was something specific that Mickey wanted to hear, he would come over to that musician and hum or sing a part or a line. I did 2 plays in all with Mickey Stevenson but I was unable to do a road show because of prior commitments.

[b] Who Played Bass on Stevie Wonder's "I Was Made To Love Her"?[/b]

Who played bass on this record I grew up with? That almost sounds silly to ask. We've grown up knowing that James Jamerson played on that record. Even before we knew his name. When I say we, I mean a whole generation of musicians that were so moved by that sound, we decided that the bass was the instrument we would devote our lives too. I knew of Jamerson by name before many did. There was a guy from my hometown named William Bongiovani who worked for Motown as did Eddie Singletary (Singleton). Though I did not know them personally, Things that they said about Motown and the fact that I was a young bassist who idolized this Motown bass player made the stories that were to become legends exposed to me early on.


There has been a controversy over the musical legacy that James Jamerson leaves behind and I am proud to present, with his permission, the thoughts and research into this matter by none other than the author of "Standing in the Shadows of Motown", Allan "Dr. Licks" Slutsky. I have added some <a href="http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html#motown">Links.

May 1995[color=#000000][font=Arial][size=1]
In light of half-a-dozen magazine articles by Carol Kaye in the last few years and the distress they caused the Jamerson family, I find it necessary to state the following information about the ongoing debate. I've remained silent for the last five years but I think it's time to step forward with some hard facts. I hope it helps to clear up the issue.
[/size][/font][/color] Allan (Dr. Licks) Slutsky
"Who Played "I Was Made to Love" Her?
The Carol Kaye-James Jamerson Enigma"


He was dead, buried, and forgotten. Even 99% of the bass players in the world had no idea who he was. But in the last seven years, his life and music have been center stage amidst an explosion of newspaper and magazine articles (more than 350 worldwide), a long overdue biography, and an upcoming film documentary. The Fender custom shop has made a signature bass in his name, flatwound strings have begun selling again, and in the last two years, the recording company that had employed him for a decade and a half finally gave him official recognition in the liner notes of 3 recent historical CD box sets.

After three decades of obscurity, musicians and music lovers throughout the world were discovering the holy grail of the bass world-James Jamerson, the tormented genius whose earthquake-heavy bass lines fueled the Motown hit machine through the '60s and early '70s. Even though it was posthumous, he was finally getting his long overdue recognition.

And everyone lived happily ever after, right? Not exactly. As Jamerson rose in prominence, his reputation was given a serious challenge through the media by another icon of the bass, Carol Kaye. Well aware of her claims through the years about her recording sessions with the Supremes, Four Tops, Stevie Wonder, and other stars in Berry Gordy's stable, I contacted her in 1987 when I first began my research for STANDING IN THE SHADOWS OF MOTOWN: The Life and Music of Legendary Bassist James Jamerson. This was done out of the highest regard for Carol's monumental achievements and contributions to the bass, and popular music in general. My intention was to find out first-hand what she had played on so I could avoid stepping on her toes.

I had expected her to name a few significant hits but was floored when she laid claim to "Bernadette", "Reach Out", "Baby Love", "I Was Made to Love Her", "Ain't No Mountain High Enough", "Dancing In the Streets", "Can't Help Myself", and dozens of others Motown classics-in short, the majority of James Jamerson's signature performances.

At that point I decided to rethink the entire project. If I could substantiate Carol's allegations, I would write the book about her instead of Jamerson. I expected my research to turn up pros and cons for each player's position, along with the usual grey areas you can expect when researching multiple claims to the same material. Instead, what I found was overwhelmingly conclusive evidence that James Jamerson played the tunes in question. Here are the facts that my research turned up:

1) The songwriting-production team of [url="http://www.hollanddozierholland.com/"]Holland-Dozier-Holland[/url] attested to the fact that James Jamerson played on almost every one of their productions, and they never allowed others to produce songs that they had written. Brian Holland signed a notarized [url="http://www.bassland.net/bh1.htm"]affidavit[/url] categorically stating that "Bernadette", "Reach Out", "Can't Help Myself", "Keep Me Hanging On", "Standing in the Shadows of Love", "Reflections", "Baby Love", "Back In My Arms Again", "Come See About Me", and "Can't Hurry Love", (all tunes claimed by Carol) were in fact, played by James Jamerson. Most damning was his statement that he had never even heard of Carol Kaye.

2) Smokey Robinson who wrote or produced probably 30-40 percent of Motown's biggest hits also denied that she had any major role in the Motown story, and had no part at all on the songs in question.

3) The performance credit that Carol has pursued with the greatest tenacity over the years is the bass part on Stevie Wonder's "I Was Made to Love Her". Hank Cosby who co-wrote, produced it, and who, in his own words, "was there every step of the way from the writing of the song to the day the 45's were shipped", vehemently denied any participation by Carol Kaye on this recording. Cosby added, "Fifty percent of the song was James Jamerson's bass line. No one played like that but Jamerson." Cosby also signed an [url="http://www.bassland.net/hc1.htm"]affidavit[/url] similar to Brian Holland's attesting to Jamerson's performance.

*********Point-Counterpoint: Carol's Side of the Story**********


1) The Politics of Race and Gender-Carol contends that Motown was afraid to admit that a white female bassist was the driving force behind some of their biggest hits. They wanted to push a black male agenda.

There are two faults with this argument. First of all, when it came to musicians, Motown had no racial or gender bias. They were all faceless cogs to them. Regardless of whether they were black, white, female, male, or Martian, they weren't going to get any recognition-period! It was a star driven phenomena and the company never gave the slightest thought to publicizing background figures. In addition, the Motown studio band (which was called the Funk Brothers) was not exclusively black. Guitarists Joe Messina and Dennis Coffey, percussionist Jack Brokensha, arranger Dave Van dePitte, and bassist Bob Babbit, who also played quite a few important Motown dates, were all white.

2) Improvised vs. Written Parts - Her claim to "Reach Out" is based upon her contention that "discerning musicians can hear that the parts weren't improvised. It was a written part". James Jamerson regularly improvised and sight read parts of that complexity. Part of his genius was that he could take a written part and make it sound as if it was his. Regardless of this argument, I have a photocopy of the original Union contract from the "Reach Out" session. It's dated July 6, 1966 (the year of the tune's release), it lists James Jamerson as the bassist (for which he received the princely sum of $61.00), and Detroit's Hitsville studio is indicated as the place where it was recorded. Carol herself admits that she never recorded in Detroit.

3) The West Coast Connection-Carol maintains that a great deal of Motown's output was being cut on the West Coast in Los Angeles.

That is true, but don't forget that Motown also had acts like Tony Martin, James Darren, and Soupy Sales signed to their label. There were also various Broadway and Las Vegas style orchestrated albums produced like the the Temptations in a Mellow Mood and The Four Tops on Broadway, not to mention the constant demand for filler material on albums. There was plenty of work to go around and Detroit could not possibly handle all of it. Frank Wilson who produced hits for Motown in both Detroit and Los Angeles supports Carol's claim that she worked numerous sessions for the company. However, he qualifies it by stating, "They used her a lot but not on the hard core R&B stuff. That stuff came out of Detroit. They didn't like her sound for R&B because she played with a pick. It didn't have that fat round sound that Jamerson got with his fingers."

4) "I Was Made to Love Her"-According to Carol, this tune was recorded at Armin Steiner's studio and she recalls "I didn't like the final written riff that I played high up in unison with the horns. You can also hear where I was scuffling a bit with open strings a couple of times".

Now it starts to get complicated. First of all, the detailed studio log that Carol kept does not support her position. The log lists every date she played from 1963-1971. She painstakingly listed artists, studios, record labels, contractors and arrangers on each date. "I Was Made to Love Her" was released in 1967 which means it was cut in '66 or '67. There are no listings for a session at Steiner's or a Stevie Wonder date during that time span.

As far as "scuffling" around, the performance is perfect. Don't trust my ears. Trust the auditory ability of one of the world's most highly regarded bassists-lifelong Jamerson devotee, Anthony Jackson. He couldn't hear what she was talking about either. The "final written riff played in unison with the horns" argument also is problematic. "I Was Made To Love Her" is rhythm section and strings. There are no horns on that record.

5) Ask My Friends-Carol asked me to talk to Gene Page, Jerry Steinholtz, Earl Palmer, and some of the other studio musicians who played the West Coast Motown sessions with her. She felt they would back up her story.

I didn't just call a few of them. I talked to every one she recommended, naming the songs in question and telling them about Carol's claims. Arranger Gene Page immediately burst out laughing and said, "She said that? No way . . . never. That stuff was all Jamerson". Percussionist Steinholtz remembered playing Motown sessions with Carol but that was as much as he could remember. The closest I got to her viewpoint was with veteran R&B session drummer Earl Palmer who bristled at my suggestion that perhaps they played the demo versions of the songs in question. "Hell no!", he countered. "We weren't playing demos. We were playing hits". The only problem was that he also couldn't remember any song titles.

Now we all know that studio musicians live by their reputations, so remembering hits that they played on is of paramount importance. If they had even remembered one title-just one-I would have had something to pursue, but as it stood, they gave me no material at all to back up her story. Back in Detroit, In stark contrast to my California research, the Funk Brothers remembered everything- song titles, intricate details, times, dates, and fellow musicians on the session and it all revolved around James Jamerson.

6) The Great Cover-Up-Carol has accused many of Motown's producers of conducting illegal non-union, under scale sessions, and in efforts to cover their backs, they refuse to admit working with her.

First of all, if the sessions were illegal, why was a union musician like Carol playing them in direct violation of union rules? Secondly, the Motown story is full of lawsuits and union problems but that doesn't exactly strike fear in their hearts. It's just business as usual. James Jamerson certainly played under scale Motown sessions at different times. Why do these same producers admit working with him?

7) Demos That Became Hits-Amidst the thousand of studio dates in Carol's logs, quite a few are marked as demos and many of those were with Motown. According to her, the company misled the musicians because many of these sessions became the actual records.

Carol may have a legitimate grievance in this instance but not in regard to the songs in question. When the recent Platinum CD Box set The Hitsville Singles Collection was produced two years ago, most of the songs in question were pulled from the vaults and re-mastered. Motown's filing system lists whether the songs were recorded in Detroit or Los Angeles (and in a few instances in New York) on each storage box. All the disputed songs were listed as being cut in Detroit.

During the sixties and seventies, Carol Kaye contributed more to popular music than most musicians, including myself, could hope to equal in several lifetimes. By all accounts of people who know her well, she is also a wonderful, warm, loving person. I have no desire in any way to hurt her or ruin her reputation, but as James Jamerson's biographer, I do have a responsibility to him. James died a brokenhearted alcoholic, tortured by the lack of recognition for his his part in the Motown story. It took the world thirty years to find out and appreciate exactly what he did and I intend to further that recognition to the best of my abilities. If that includes defending him in the face of unfounded attacks on his life's work, so be it.

I'm still open to any information which would change the story and support Carol Kaye's version but so far, I've yet to find a single shred of evidence. I'd even go as far as to say that I wouldn't doubt that somewhere out there, there is some evidence that would support her claims on a few disputed songs.

She has my humblest apologies for the few that I may have missed. But when you're talking about "Bernadette", "Reach Out", "Baby Love", "I Was Made to Love Her", "Ain't No Mountain High Enough", "Dancing In the Streets", "Can't Help Myself", Standing In The Shadows of Love", "You Keep Me Hangin' On", and dozens of others . . . Sorry Carol. That magical legacy belongs to someone else.

[4 Strings]

Although I was kind of hoping this thread would 't go into all this, I can't help but comment, having rather made a study of Jamerson and, to a lesser extent, Bob Babbit to play in my Motown band. There are habits and styles which, to me, clearly define these.

I Was Made to Love Her is absolutely typical Jamerson, the slightly loose timing, slightly different each time, root for first beat and semi ad-lib there after, some ponderous gaps (listed to 'Once In My Life too') and a groove.

Bob is a fine bass player, even if revered still under-estimated in my opinion. However he is way more disciplined than Jamerson and repeats will be just that. Listen to the 'UK' version of Tears of a Clown (and spot the mistake!). This and Signed Sealed are kind of Babbit signature tracks to me. I feel Jamerson plays with more finesse but Bob more solid.

Carol plays with a pick, is probably more disciplined than either but, in my opinion, is more score orientated and, also in my opinion, plays with less of a groove, probably as a result, and sounds totally different to either Bob or Jamerson. I find it impossible to believe it's her playing on I Was Made To Love Her. She may well have played on versions of it etc but it will take a lot to convince me it's her on the track.

Edited July 3, 2012 by 4 Strings

[lowdown]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1341307045' post='1716577']
Although I was kind of hoping this thread would 't go into all this, I can't help but comment, having rather made a study of Jamerson and, to a lesser extent, Bob Babbit to play in my Motown band. There are habits and styles which, to me, clearly define these.

I Was Made to Love Her is absolutely typical Jamerson, the slightly loose timing, slightly different each time, root for first beat and semi ad-lib there after, some ponderous gaps (listed to 'Once In My Life too') and a groove.

Bob is a fine bass player, even if revered still under-estimated in my opinion. However he is way more disciplined than Jamerson and repeats will be just that. Listen to the 'UK' version of Tears of a Clown (and spot the mistake!). This and Signed Sealed are kind of Babbit signature tracks to me. I feel Jamerson plays with more finesse but Bob more solid.

Carol plays with a pick, is probably more disciplined than either but, in my opinion, is more score orientated and, also in my opinion, plays with less of a groove, probably as a result, and sounds totally different to either Bob or Jamerson. I find it impossible to believe it's her playing on I Was Made To Love Her. She may well have played on versions of it etc but it will take a lot to convince me it's her on the track.
[/quote]

That's pretty much the way I view it all.

But the more and more stories that seem to appear over the years still makes for Interesting reading,
and listening. I suppose it all adds to the magic of it all.


Garry

[jimmy_lazers]

If you're at all interested in Carol Kaye (which let's face it, as a self respecting bassist you should be) then there's quite an interesting foreword with/about her in Paul Balmer's Haynes Fender Bass Manual. In fact, it's quite a useful book all round.

As far as famous bass parts go, I never realised that was her on Good Vibrations by the Beach Boys - good to put a face to a bassline...

[jacko]

There's no doubt she's had an incredible career but she certainly has some very odd notions. A couple of times she's stated that she sets her bass up with the bridge saddles pulled all the way back claiming that it makes absolutely no difference to the intonation of the bass. I've tried this and it sounds like sh*t.

[lowdown]

More than likely been posted before,
"The Wrecking Crew" film website.
A trailer with a small CK Interview.
[url="http://www.wreckingcrewfilm.com/reviews.html"]http://www.wreckingc...om/reviews.html[/url]

And some more film trailers.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvXvTySfWMU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvXvTySfWMU[/url]

Garry

Edited July 9, 2012 by lowdown

[Geddys nose]

http://www.notreble.com/buzz/2011/09/13/carol-kaye-victor-wooten-and-steve-bailey-jam-at-namm/

Way to go Carol she has a great groove going on this clip very nice playing.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='jimmy_lazers' timestamp='1341311336' post='1716658']
As far as famous bass parts go, I never realised that was her on Good Vibrations by the Beach Boys - good to put a face to a bassline...
[/quote]

Even if you discount everything else shes ever done (which I dont BTW) , playing on what is quite possible the best pop song of all time deserves a bit of respect.