High Action

[karlfer]

Many thanks Mr. Rock sir.
Changing from flats to rounds on a bass tonight, think I will need a little less concave as should be lower tension.
I can always get Ritchie to sort it after I've cocked it up .

[4 Strings]

No, loosen to make MORE concave. Loosening the truss rod reduces its effect, the strings 'win' and the neck bows more.

If the rod is totally loose its as if it wasn't fitted.

[karlfer]

Finally, I understand.
Many thanks folks,
Karl.

[stingrayPete1977]

Its funny how we all start off scared of truss rods, I know I did, then once you have given them some hammer its all fine. I think it stems from the old Fenders where the neck had to keep being taken off, people just never did it themselves and the "take it to a shop" attitude developed?

I do wonder if some of the unplayable crap was just a case of needing a setup although I do remember a mates Hohner strat copy that had a massive high action and no amount of adjusting made it any better!

Messing about with bitsa basses and projects is the way forward I guess, once you have made a few bits from all over the world via eBay come together and play well you have in cracked

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1341400471' post='1718263']
I nearly always get Ritchie Thompson to do mine, because I've always been afraid to ask the following question;
here goes, from Mr. Dumbass,
turn the truss rod left = to loosen the truss rod = less concave neck.
True or false?

I can do all the other bits, it's always this bit that confuses me.
[/quote]

careful.. some go in reverse.

[3below]

4 ~ 5mm just fine, but I am a hard hitter on strings and double bass playing has made this more so. I also find that as you lower the strings at a certain point the tone just drops off. In my youth, when low action was aim of the game, my Fender precision was just amazing. Have never got a bass that low since but am no longer bothered.

[LiamPodmore]

My action at the 12th is around 3mm. I do truss rod tweaks myself (I also follow [url="http://www.jerzydrozdbasses.com/akcndfr54jdhrei567/Ultimate_Guide_ver100.pdf"]this setup guide[/url]) although on my Fender is a ballache as it's at the neck end, can be done just means me taking the pickguard off.

Liam

[KingBollock]

The dread of the Truss Rod is drilled into beginners. I think it must have started out as a "Just be a bit careful, if you were to knacker it it's a pretty big deal" and went on to become "Don't touch it! It'll eat eat the first child of every generation you spawn from here to eternity!". I often wonder if it's professional repair people that helped spread the fear.

Over the last few years I managed to shed that fear and have been setting up Truss Rods with no problems at all. But, a few weeks ago, I had a Bass turn up and I couldn't quite figure out what was wrong with it to start with, so I panicked and immediately blamed the mysterious Truss Rod. So I'm not immune. I mentioned it in a thread on here and even when I later figured out that it wasn't actually the problem I still had people insisting that it must be. It's not some odd, magical device created my evil Magicians in dark, damp caves at the dawn of time, made purely to confuse and unsettle. It's actual quite simple and easy to use if not abused. Unfortunately, a lot of people never get over the initial warnings and end up carrying it on to the next generation.

Edited July 4, 2012 by KingBollock

[4 Strings]

so.... what was the problem?

[KingBollock]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1341442260' post='1719316']
so.... what was the problem?
[/quote]
Badly designed Bass. The neck, which is neck-through, is flush with the body, so there's only the height of the fretboard to make the action closer to the strings, as the bridge won't go below 10mm, meaning the minimum action was 4.5mm when taking the fretboard and gap to the lowest bridge setting into account. It turns out that this is to do with the design of the NT BC Rich Warlocks and the NT Mockingbirds, as far as I know.

Edited July 4, 2012 by KingBollock

[4 Strings]

Can see what you mean (although this one looks bolt-on).

[attachment=112226:BC Rch.jpg]

Bizarre they make them like this.

Did you fix it?

Edited July 5, 2012 by 4 Strings

[BottomE]

[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1341434100' post='1719095']
The dread of the Truss Rod is drilled into beginners. I think it must have started out as a "Just be a bit careful, if you were to knacker it it's a pretty big deal" and went on to become "Don't touch it! It'll eat eat the first child of every generation you spawn from here to eternity!". I often wonder if it's professional repair people that helped spread the fear.

Over the last few years I managed to shed that fear and have been setting up Truss Rods with no problems at all. But, a few weeks ago, I had a Bass turn up and I couldn't quite figure out what was wrong with it to start with, so I panicked and immediately blamed the mysterious Truss Rod. So I'm not immune. I mentioned it in a thread on here and even when I later figured out that it wasn't actually the problem I still had people insisting that it must be. It's not some odd, magical device created my evil Magicians in dark, damp caves at the dawn of time, made purely to confuse and unsettle. It's actual quite simple and easy to use if not abused. Unfortunately, a lot of people never get over the initial warnings and end up carrying it on to the next generation.
[/quote]

You are right on the money there KB. Its true. I have been playing/owning basses for nearly 30 years (omg) and have only recently been confident enough to take on my own truss rod. There is a kind of myth around the sacred truss rod.

There is a video from a guy at Lakland on YT about bass setup where he is tweaking his truss rod. He makes it look so simple...

[KingBollock]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1341468903' post='1719396']
Can see what you mean (although this one looks bolt-on).

[attachment=112226:BC Rch.jpg]

Bizarre they make them like this.

Did you fix it?
[/quote]
Not yet. I don't want to stir up the old thread, it still gives me nightmares, so I shall post here.

This photo is out of focus but I forgot to take another. In it you can see that the fretboard is low and the action high:


This doesn't help:


Here you can see the difference between having the sliders in and not. Unfortunately there's no way to hold the saddles in place without the sliders, apart from string pressure:


This is what the slider and saddle look like together:


Here you can see what the action is like without the slider and only the saddle. Much better:


Ideally I should sink the bridge into the body, but, the depth I'd have to go would mean I'd have to replace the bridge as there would be no way to get the strings in on this bridge unless I had some of the body behind the bridge removed too, which would need refinishing...



So my thought was to take some material from the bottom of each slider and each saddle, enough to make up about 5mm. That way it would look and work just how it's supposed to but be lower. And, if I completely cock it up I only have to replace the bridge (£20 for the same model) and I'm back to square one.

Edited July 5, 2012 by KingBollock

[TRBboy]

I've gotta be honest, I've never ever measured the action on any guitar or bass, and I used to do setups/repairs professionally. I think that you can't just rely on the measurement at the 12th fret to judge whether the instrument is set up as well as it can be. Depending on the amount of relief in the neck and the height of the saddles (and other factors) the same measurement at the 12th fret could apply to quite different setups. I always just do it by feel and sound; I put as little relief in the neck as possible (depending on the instrument) and then keep lowering the action 'til I get a slightly unacceptable level of fret buzz, and then bring it back up a touch. Hey presto, the action is as low as it can be on that particular instrument, regardless of the measurements!

[Fubar]

You're right TRB. Whenever I get another bass I just tweak here and there until it feels comfortable although I like mine on the lowish side. I'm dismayed by the fact that many a potential bass player and even guitarists have abandoned learning their chosen instrument because the action was too high as thats the way it was when they bought it from the shop.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='TRBboy' timestamp='1341505792' post='1720233']
I've gotta be honest, I've never ever measured the action on any guitar or bass, and I used to do setups/repairs professionally. I think that you can't just rely on the measurement at the 12th fret to judge whether the instrument is set up as well as it can be. Depending on the amount of relief in the neck and the height of the saddles (and other factors) the same measurement at the 12th fret could apply to quite different setups. I always just do it by feel and sound; I put as little relief in the neck as possible (depending on the instrument) and then keep lowering the action 'til I get a slightly unacceptable level of fret buzz, and then bring it back up a touch. Hey presto, the action is as low as it can be on that particular instrument, regardless of the measurements!
[/quote]

Which is exactly what some people don't want! What's right for one person even a pro won't be right for another, learning to do your own adjustments is the only way of saving money on having a shop set it up how they want it.

[gub]

What' are you fretless peeps measurements ?

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='gub' timestamp='1341520348' post='1720535']
What' are you fretless peeps measurements ?
[/quote]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1341135931' post='1714071']
Takamine B10 = approx 7mm
Upright = approx 9mm
[/quote]

[jimbobothy]

[quote name='gafbass02' timestamp='1341137352' post='1714098']
I'm another that likes a crazy low action, I find it almost impossible to play with speed, dexterity and subtlety on high action basses. But many people do and I admire them for it!
[/quote]

Ha, I'm another one that likes a crazy low action, however I just find it hard to play with speed, dexterity and subtlety no matter how low or high the action

[Hobbayne]

I hit the strings hard, although I only use Ernie Ball Super Slinkies 45 65 80 100, I cant get any volume from low action. The higher action, higher output.

[TRBboy]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1341519467' post='1720510']


Which is exactly what some people don't want! What's right for one person even a pro won't be right for another, learning to do your own adjustments is the only way of saving money on having a shop set it up how they want it.
[/quote]

Yes, sorry I didn't mean that everyone should have their action as low as possible, just trying to illustrate the fact that I think a good setup is best done in an intuitive way rather than a mathematical way. That's why (exactly as you said) it's best to learn to setup your instrument yourself, because no-one will ever do it as well as you can yourself. The majority of people I did setups for just said "make it play really nice" when I asked them how I liked their action. I only had a small percentage of people tell me how they liked it, and I certainly never had anyone ask for a really high action. I guess maybe the majority of people who are paying someone else to re-string and set up their instrument don't really know what they do or don't like with regards to action as long as it feels okay and isn't causing them any problems?

[stingrayPete1977]

Sounds about right mate

[lurksalot]

[quote name='TRBboy' timestamp='1341614605' post='1722001']
Yes, sorry I didn't mean that everyone should have their action as low as possible, just trying to illustrate the fact that I think a good setup is best done in an intuitive way rather than a mathematical way. That's why (exactly as you said) it's best to learn to setup your instrument yourself, because no-one will ever do it as well as you can yourself. The majority of people I did setups for just said "make it play really nice" when I asked them how I liked their action. I only had a small percentage of people tell me how they liked it, and I certainly never had anyone ask for a really high action. I guess maybe the majority of people who are paying someone else to re-string and set up their instrument don't really know what they do or don't like with regards to action as long as it feels okay and isn't causing them any problems?
[/quote]
I know where you are coming from on this one , not guitar related, but some customers know exactly what they want, specify it , and are chuffed when you do it . Others are happy for you to do as you see fit and mostly are happy , though some then think that you could have done more , and without specifying what they wanted (because they often don't know what they want) are are then a bit miffed when they don't get the latest guru tech spec (that looks after itself) that they percieved they would get .

[Ashwood1985]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1341172136' post='1714730']
[url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Marlin-Bass-Guitar-/290735930588?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item43b1363cdc#ht_500wt_922"]http://www.ebay.co.u...dc#ht_500wt_922[/url]

What do you reckon the action is like on that bad boy?
[/quote]

That. Is. Abuse. (Poor Thing)

[Ashwood1985]

I had Martin at the Gallery set my wick up pretty low:

B > 2mm
E 2mm
G < 1.5mm

Plays beautifully and does buzz when I choose to dig in but you know what?... Isn't that part of the instrument? to be used? I love digging into the G string to get a nice aggressive, poppy Staccato note. I should note that I'm by no means a 'thashy' player in which case it would probably need to come up quite a bit. But it gets me thinking: Do sax players try to avoid reed buzz wherever possible when the rest of us thinks it sounds great? I've recently started to re-evaluate the way I think about buzz and fret noise and have come to the current understanding that the right set up is the one that gives you control to manipulate the instrument to get the nuances you want out of it: from crystal clear, clean chords droning away in the higher registers to a thunderously buzzing finger of doom sending an open B to the depts of oblivion (as long as you are choosing to make these sounds somewhere in you) of course, when buzz and fret noise are happening with a mind of their own and wont go away, or when you feel like your hand's walking on telephone wires however, then your axe definitely needs some tlc.

Apologise if I got carried away. I probably meant to stop about 10 words after the measurements.