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Does anyone make a separate mid-range speaker for a modular system?


Spoombung
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[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1341212638' post='1715074']
And of course, whilst I remember...

[url="http://barefacedbass.com/index.php?page=big-baby"]This chap![/url]
[/quote]

Sorry, that's not what I mean.... :)
The mid speaker in a [i]separate[/i] cabinet...

Edited by Spoombung
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[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1341212638' post='1715074']
And of course, whilst I remember...

[url="http://barefacedbass.com/index.php?page=big-baby"]This chap![/url]
[/quote]

I think Spoombung is looking for a [i]modular[/i] setup, i.e. one with the woofers and mids in separate cabs. Shouldn't be too hard to modify the Fearful 12+6 plans and add a headcase though.

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You need a DIY friend to make a small box about 5 litres in size(internal volume).

Then the important bit. You need to match the midrange to the existing/chosen bass unit.

Crossover operating somewhere about 1KHz to 1.5KHz would be my guess and capable of handling 3-400 Watts.

What is the existing bass unit?

Balcro.

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[quote name='Balcro' timestamp='1341248341' post='1715743']


Crossover operating somewhere about 1KHz to 1.5KHz would be my guess and capable of handling 3-400 Watts.



Balcro.


[/quote]

That sounds a bit high. I was thinking 400HZ - 1 KHZ: ie, midrange. I have a dull sounding speaker that could have more a clear midrange. It's a bit boomy. Just looking for a general pupose unit you can chain -up (link) with a bigger speaker really

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[quote name='Spoombung' timestamp='1341250160' post='1715783']
That sounds a bit high. I was thinking 400HZ - 1 KHZ: ie, midrange. I have a dull sounding speaker that could have more a clear midrange. It's a bit boomy. Just looking for a general pupose unit you can chain -up (link) with a bigger speaker really
[/quote]

Hi spoombung,

What exactly is this dull sounding speaker you're talking about. Do you have a manufacturer, model name or number? What box is it in and is it the original speaker?

Balcro.

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[quote name='Balcro' timestamp='1341251588' post='1715820']
Hi spoombung,

What exactly is this dull sounding speaker you're talking about. Do you have a manufacturer, model name or number? What box is it in and is it the original speaker?

Balcro.
[/quote]

I'm not sure what it is. It's in a tatty old cab with no markings. In general, I am absolutely useless at picking the right amps and speakers, to be honest.

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the hunt for a better set-up has been prompted by a new band. This is a very rough recording from the last gig (in a very echoey room):

[url="http://soundcloud.com/spoombung/number-14-by-prescott"]http://soundcloud.co...-14-by-prescott[/url]

On this occasion I borrowed the other bass player's Aguilar 12s. You can hear it's boomy with top but it didn't produce much mids even though I had the amp boosting them. I'm also competing with the electric piano which is naturally mid-heavy.

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In [i]theory[/i] it's possible to mess around with EQ/cross-overs/amplification/cabinets/drivers ad infinitum unti you find your personal version of perfection.
In practice, I'm sure it's an utter pain in the... You get the idea.
I think the reason that modular midrange cabs aren't readily available is that the manufacturer can't legislate for whic other pieces of equipment you'll be using, and as such, can't guarantee how well they'll all work together.
Worse still, the crossover aspect is potentially problematic. Feed a "mid range" cab a full range signal, and odds-on you'll fry it.
A passive crossover that can deal with 1kW from a large amp is possible, but expensive and not adjustable/flexible enough for this application. In the context of a full-range cab (such as the Baers/Barefaced/fEarful) it is more cost-effective because it is working with drivers for which it has been designed.

The better alternative is the active approach;

Bass----Pre/EQ----Crossover-----2x or 3x channels of power amplification----- Low, Mid and High Frequency drivers

Which is flexible enough to work in most scenarios. But you'd probably want an extra set of eq in there. One (with the crossover) to correctly eq the speaker system to the sort of response you want, and one to "play" with for tone-shaping.
And this is rapidly approaching PA system levels of complexity..

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[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' timestamp='1341257429' post='1716007']
In [i]theory[/i] it's possible to mess around with EQ/cross-overs/amplification/cabinets/drivers ad infinitum unti you find your personal version of perfection.
In practice, I'm sure it's an utter pain in the... You get the idea.
I think the reason that modular midrange cabs aren't readily available is that the manufacturer can't legislate for whic other pieces of equipment you'll be using, and as such, can't guarantee how well they'll all work together.
Worse still, the crossover aspect is potentially problematic. Feed a "mid range" cab a full range signal, and odds-on you'll fry it.
A passive crossover that can deal with 1kW from a large amp is possible, but expensive and not adjustable/flexible enough for this application. In the context of a full-range cab (such as the Baers/Barefaced/fEarful) it is more cost-effective because it is working with drivers for which it has been designed.

The better alternative is the active approach;

Bass----Pre/EQ----Crossover-----2x or 3x channels of power amplification----- Low, Mid and High Frequency drivers

Which is flexible enough to work in most scenarios. But you'd probably want an extra set of eq in there. One (with the crossover) to correctly eq the speaker system to the sort of response you want, and one to "play" with for tone-shaping.
And this is rapidly approaching PA system levels of complexity..
[/quote]

Ah yes that does sound a bit like a mini PA. Thanks for the explanation. I can't really cope with a complicated set up so I think I might as well give up on the midrange cab idea and look for a better all-round speaker and cab.... but where do you try out these things?

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Does the dull sounding no-name cab have a tweeter in it? I've played through a few tweetered cabs where the crossover frequency is set too low for the tweeter to work properly, leaving a hole in the upper mids that EQ can't fix. If your cab is one of these you might want to try ditching the tweeter and crossover and running the full-range signal to the 12". It might or might not help, but it would cost nothing to try. I'm enjoying the tunes on Soundcloud, by the way!

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[quote name='Spoombung' timestamp='1341250160' post='1715783']
That sounds a bit high. I was thinking 400HZ - 1 KHZ: ie, midrange. I have a dull sounding speaker that could have more a clear midrange. It's a bit boomy. Just looking for a general pupose unit you can chain -up (link) with a bigger speaker really
[/quote]There's no reason to cross lower than where the twelve starts to beam, around 1.2 to 1.6kHz. The reason for a mid driver is just as much dispersion as it is response. As for boom, that occurs down around 100 to 160Hz, so adding a mid driver wouldn't affect it. The causes of boom are a cab that's too small, is tuned too high, or is insufficiently damped, as well as a combination of any or all those factors.

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Hi spoombung,

Picking up from Bill Fitzmaurice's post, you might want to consider checking the speaker inside the box. The cost of getting
the correct 12" speaker could well be cheaper and more effective than your original suggestion of midrange & crossover.

If you feel like grabbing a screwdriver and poking about inside to see the driver, we may be able to help. Perhaps a couple of pictures.

Balcro.

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[quote name='Spoombung' timestamp='1341246984' post='1715711']
I'm quite surprised there's nothing available. I would have thought its a good idea because you could match it with a dull, bassy 12" and get a hifi sound and it would be easy to carry too.
[/quote]

A good design has drivers that are well matched, as well as a crossover specifically designed to work with both drivers. Simply adding a mid driver to another cab will result in mixed results at best. Also because the mid driver in a two way design is coming off the crossover, you are not asking it to reproduce any frequencies below the crossover point. Simply adding a 6" mid cabinet to your 12" speaker cabinet without a crossover means that the midrange cab is going to see a a full range signal, which is going to seriously lower it's power handling capability of that driver.

Edited by R Baer
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From a dispersion perspective I think it's better to cross as low as possible to avoid off-axis nulls due to destructive interference between drivers in the crossover region, or alternatively to make sure the directivity of the midrange gives minimal pattern overlap with the woofer at point of crossover. Assuming the half-wavelength spacing rule-of-thumb then for a 12" driver crossing to a 6" driver, spaced as closely together as is feasible, then crossing around 650Hz-ish would be good. Vertical stacking of speakers is not a universal panacea for this unless you put your drivers either side of ear height.
Whether this matters much for bass guitar is a different matter, but the dispersion of Barefaced and DIY 12+6 cabs is reportedly very even and they crossover somewhere that region. I've not tried them myself so can't say, but I have used various 3-way PA cabs with very good results for FoH. Another factor in crossing low is that it'll take woofer cone breakup distortion out of the picture, this may or may not be a good thing depending on your taste.

Of course, if your midrange driver can't take a lower crossover point then nasty distortion will give more problems than the off-axis lobing caused by crossing too high!

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