I have changed so much from my humble beginnings

[SpaceChick]

Crowded house have some fabulous basslines Fumps, their bassist is also as mad as a box of frogs... I think its a genius twinged with madness concept there

[fumps]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1341840045' post='1724886']
What do you mean "by numbers"?
[/quote]
I'm on this bit about learning chords by number.....i'm a little lost

[LiamPodmore]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1341840045' post='1724886']
What do you mean "by numbers"?
[/quote]

I'm going to hazard a guess that he means the note number of a chord, so say, the 3rd note of a G chord etc...

Liam

[charic]

I think it may be the chord within the key?

If you can type out an example I'm sure one of us could help clear it up

[fumps]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1341841266' post='1724920']
I think it may be the chord within the key?

If you can type out an example I'm sure one of us could help clear it up
[/quote]
I don't have the book I'm learning from with me unfortunately, but it's like breaking down chords note by note & referring to them as a number (In a key I think) I'm not sure why we do this tbh, I have read through this a few times & cant get my head around it & why we do it as i thought notes had names (A,B,C etc)

[charic]

Oh that

That's so you can identify intervals. Particular intervals always have a similar effect (how they leave you feeling)

It's particular noticeable at the end of songs (usually finish with a V(5th) - I(root)) interval as it leaves you with a feeling of completeness where as a IV - I generally leaves you hanging on the edge of the seat waiting for the next note. It can be really bloody uncomfortable!


Edit just to add.... I think this is what it's about anyway

Edited July 9, 2012 by charic

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='lee4' timestamp='1341601794' post='1721772']
Congratulations,you've been Fumped!
If you've been left feeling slightly confused,worried,and scared for your own sanity,then you too have spoken to The Master of all Absurdity,His Fumpishness.
[/quote]

Damn that Frumpishness.

Good thread though.

Dave

[sarah thomas]

[quote name='fumps' timestamp='1341838272' post='1724829']
Aww thats easy ......

Just make sure the string is taught, the wind is in the right direction (Left to right from the opposite pram wheel) and don't jump before the washer falls off, other wise you'll have to set it up all over again......ho & never wear your cloth cap, you'll scare the frogs away.
[/quote]

Cheers for that. I may have to change the purple feather to a pink one and stop the caribou nibbling the croquet hoops.

[fumps]

[quote name='sarah thomas' timestamp='1341847586' post='1725040']
Cheers for that. I may have to change the purple feather to a pink one and stop the caribou nibbling the croquet hoops.
[/quote]
Oooo yes i just winced thinking about that !

[lee4]

[quote name='fumps' timestamp='1341840567' post='1724895']
I'm on this bit about learning chords by number.....i'm a little lost
[/quote]
Could be the Nashville system.EG,key of G,//I/I/IV/VI// would be G/G/C/Em.
G is the first chord,C is the fourth etc.

[fumps]

lol
I'm still lost why they do this strange Roman numeral system......hmmm may need to shelve that one until later

[charic]

[quote name='fumps' timestamp='1341916708' post='1726011']
lol
I'm still lost why they do this strange Roman numeral system......hmmm may need to shelve that one until later
[/quote]

That's probably to stop people getting confused between chords and chord intervals (chords can have numbers in them: C7 for example)

[Dad3353]

[quote name='fumps' timestamp='1341916708' post='1726011']...I'm still lost why they do this strange Roman numeral system...[/quote]
Good afternoon, Fumps...
I don't want to confuse things further, but I'll try this...
In the same way as algebra symbolises 'real' numbers (a + a = 2a...), Roman numbers symbolise notes. For the algebra example above, the statement is true whatever the value chosen for 'a' (1 + 1 = 2, 2 + 2 = 4 etc...). The Roman numbers hold good, as abstract symbols for any note substitute.
II, V, I can be expressed as A, D, G or as G, F, C, for instance. The 'intervals' between the notes hold good whatever tonality is played.
[i]Please don't take any extra chemical substances if this is not clear enough; I'll get back behind the bushes now[/i]...
Hope this helps, just the same...

[fumps]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1341919950' post='1726116']
.
II, V, I can be expressed as A, D, G or as G, F, C, for instance. The 'intervals' between the notes hold good whatever tonality is played.
[i]Please don't take any extra chemical substances if this is not clear enough; I'll get back behind the bushes now[/i]...
Hope this helps, just the same...
[/quote]
Cheers mate for trying to explain...erm yeh......you know now what I'm on about.......I am not the sharpest tool in the monkey but I just cant get me head around this.

Does anyone know what this system is called ? so I can start trawling the internet for a thicky-mc dum-dum explanation

Edited July 10, 2012 by fumps

[sarah thomas]

Here's my theory:

Chords in a song use the roman numeral system, so for a 12 bar blues in D, the D chord would be I, E would be II, F would be III, G would be IV and so on.

I I I I (Can't make the Is line up over the Ds - sorry)
D D D D

IV IV I I
G G D D

V IV I V
A G D A It's a one four five (I, IV, V)

Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3 etc) are used for notes within the scale. So, for the first two bars of the D chord (I), you might play a walking line of 1, 3, 5, 6, b7, 6, 5, 3 on the scale, which in the scale of D translates to D, F sharp, A, B, C, B, A, F sharp. Then you repeat the line for another two bars.

It's a bit brain frying.

In bars five and six, you move onto the IV chord, in this case, G. Now you can play the same walking line, only this time you are using the scale of G. So 1 = G,
3 = B, 5 = D, 6= E, b7 = F, 6 = E and 3 brings us back to B.

It helps if you have a keyboard - a little cheapy thing will suffice. It's much much easier to see how the chords and scale notes relate to each other on a keyboard. And don't give up! I nearly gave up when I was told that thirds are half of it. Pram wheels and caribou are easier to understand.

The thing is, take what I and others say and try it out. Don't believe it. Question it. See for yourself.

Edited July 10, 2012 by sarah thomas

[fumps]

Gulp!

So the numbers consist of the actual order that the chords are played in ? or do they follow a progression that I'm not sure exists ?

So for instance
If chords in a song goes:
A-D-G-E-F

That would be
A (I)
D (II)
G (III)
E (IV)
F (V)


am I right or shall I go & comb the Pram wheels hair in the corner ? ........stop trying to understand stuff that makes me fall over

[charic]

Not interval is the notes position within the scale that is being played :-)

[tauzero]

No, it's not the order they're in. I think there may be two things here which are potentially getting conflated.

As Sarah says, numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 will be the numbers of the note in a scale. C major, for example, has

C = 1, D = 2, E = 3, F = 4, G = 5, A 6, B = 7

The major chord is made up of notes 1, 3, and 5 - hence C, E and G.

Things are a little different with chords. They are expressed as I, II, III etc, but now

C maj = I, D min = II (I'm sure I've seen a convention to write minors as lowercase, hence ii), E min = III, F maj = IV, G maj = V, A min = VI, Baugdim5 with fried rice = VII. The reason that some chords are major and some are minor is that all three notes of 1, 3, and 5 must be in the C major scale. It's 3 that tells you whether it's major or minor, and if it's three semitones up from the 1 note it's a minor, if it's 4 semitones up it's a major. Hence A minor - from A the notes go A=1, B=2, C=3 (following the C major scale), D=4, E=5 and so the chord is A C E which is Am.

Doing that type of notation (I, II, III etc) is handy as it means that if yer typical 12-bar goes I IV I V IV I V, it doesn't matter what key it's in, If it's in A, it goes A D A E D A E, if it's in C, it goes C F C G F C G, if it's in Eb, it's jazz and you can forget about it.

Edited July 10, 2012 by tauzero

[sarah thomas]

In your given chord progression of A-D-G-E-F, if we assume that the tune is in the key of A, then A will be the (I) chord. Count along the alphabet - A, B, C, D and you will see that D must be the (IV) chord. [If A is (I), then B is (II), C is (III) and D is (IV)]

So:
A (I)
D (IV)
G (VII)
E (V)
F (VI)

It's not the order that chords come in that matters here. It is their relationship to each other. Bear in mind that I am counting on my fingers as I work this out, with the occasional dash over to the piano.

If your chord progression was in the key of E, then E would be the (I) chord. Again, counting along the alphabet but this time starting on E, E=I, F=II,G=III, A=IV, B=V, C=VI, and D=VII. Now your progression would look like this:

A (IV)
D (VII)
G (III)
E (I)
F (II)

Whatever key the tune is in, that is the home (or (I)) chord.

If it makes you feel any better, I've been slowly getting my head round this for the last two years, and as mentioned earlier, I'm still counting on my fingers.
How about taking a simple tune you know, writing out the chord progression and we'll have a look at it. I may need a lie down first!

[sarah thomas]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1341935812' post='1726511']

if yer typical 12-bar goes I IV I V IV I V, it doesn't matter what key it's in, If it's in A, it goes A D A E D A E, if it's in C, it goes C F C G F C G, if it's in Eb, it's jazz and you can forget about it.
[/quote]

If it's jazz, it'll have 16 bars!

[fumps]

I feel like that last kid to "Get it" in the class.
I keep reading through this info & my brain is asking the question but "why not just say E,F,G in the key of E"?

I will keep at it but.....oooo me head hurts ! Edited July 11, 2012 by fumps

[charic]

Think if it this way...

[u]Case A[/u]
Your explaining an idea of a song to someone. You tell them the chord sequence and everything is great. But then the singer can't sing in that key so you need to change it (you can't change the singer because of he's your mate...), so you shift the song down a bit. You then need to tell everyone the new chord sequences for throughout the WHOLE SONG.

[u]Case B[/u]
Your explaining an idea of a song to someone. You tell them the intervals in the key and everyone knowing their theory (rare in most bands to be fair) everything is great. But then the singer can't sing in that key so you need to change it, so you shift the whole song down a bit. You then tell everyone what the new key is and they can work out the new chords throughout because they know the intervals.

[fumps]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1342005790' post='1727793']
Think if it this way...

[u]Case A[/u]
Your explaining an idea of a song to someone. You tell them the chord sequence and everything is great. But then the singer can't sing in that key so you need to change it (you can't change the singer because of he's your mate...), so you shift the song down a bit. You then need to tell everyone the new chord sequences for throughout the WHOLE SONG.

[u]Case B[/u]
Your explaining an idea of a song to someone. You tell them the intervals in the key and everyone knowing their theory (rare in most bands to be fair) everything is great. But then the singer can't sing in that key so you need to change it, so you shift the whole song down a bit. You then tell everyone what the new key is and they can work out the new chords throughout because they know the intervals.
[/quote]
Aaaaaaah now i understand the reasoning behind it.....now i just need to understand it ......which is the hard bit lol

[charic]

[quote name='fumps' timestamp='1342006074' post='1727810']
Aaaaaaah now i understand the reasoning behind it.....now i just need to understand it ......which is the hard bit lol
[/quote]

I always need a reason before I want to learn anything too

Looking forward to the next question, it's bringing back a bunch of stuff

[fumps]

So if i made this chart this will give me all the answers i need ?
[attachment=112823:key chord chart.JPG]

I just made this on excel ......I think it's right but I need someone to check it

Edited July 11, 2012 by fumps