Advice on technique

[Damonjames]

Hi all chatter's, I have a couple of technique related questions for you and any advice would be greatly appreciated.
First off, about three months ago I started playing bass again after MANY years away. I was convinced this time I would learn to play properly because if I'm being honest the limits my poor technique asserted on me probably contributed to me stopping in the first place. Using good left hand technique I set about strengthening my fingers by doing lots of scales, but now I am finding if I play a repetitive walking bass style for a few minutes my hands burn like crazy! To the point where I lose dexterity and control. The easiest way to describe this burn is like doing a heavy shoulder weights work out one day then trying to do a boxing session the next day and your shoulders feel like they are on fire. ( I have done both and they feel the same) it burns in the muscles/ tendons between the fingers where they attach to the hand. Is this something I just have to persevere with or is something wrong?
Next question is I seem to be having trouble playing an octave above say an g ( like a power chord with first and third fingers) on the e string or any lower than 3rd fret unless I have my bass up around my nipples. Now as an aspiring rock bassist this is obviously not a good look, but I do struggle at times with my short lady like fingers. Any advice greatly appreciated cheers.

[chris_b]

You don't need Arnold Schwarzenegger fingers to play well. You get good technique by doing things properly and with less effort.

I'd think about getting your bass set up with a low action, which will enable you to play gently. Then you can concentrate on the playing and not the vice like grip.

[Damonjames]

Thanks for the reply, I already have my bass ( squire vintage modified) with a low action, it's to the point where I am getting fret buzz on the 20th fret when I play hard on g or a on the e string. I've thought about putting some more relief in the neck but then worry the higher frets will be harder to play as the will be further from the finger board

[chris_b]

Ok, if the bass is good then I think you need to lighten up on your style.

If you're getting "burn" I would think you're doing something wrong or too much or too hard.

Diagnosing at distance is always a bit hit and miss. I’d get a couple of lessons to sort out the basics.

[gjones]

[size=6]Turn your amp up really loud[/size]............and then play softer.

[Hobbayne]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1341782111' post='1724172']
[size=6]Turn your amp up really loud[/size]............and then play softer.
[/quote]

This ^
A featherlite touch will hopefully ensue.

[essexbasscat]

Hi OP, your post does give a few possible clues.

You mention short fingers and being away from the bass for quite a while. Additionally, the pain you describe when/after playing repetitive scales does sound as if the muscles and nerves in your hand / wrist / forearm are being stretched to an uncomfortable degree.

As an experiment, you could try practicing scales up around the 12th fret, where the frets are closer together for a while. Your hands would get back in shape again, without too much initial stretching. As your stamina builds, you can slowly spend more time playing a little nearer the tuning pegs, with the aim to gradually increase the stretch over time.

Hope that helps

[LawrenceH]

I'm not the greatest technician by a long way, but two things I'd suggest
1. While people build basic technique I've noticed they tend to tense their hands a lot and squeeze pretty hard as they try and force muscles to do things they're not used to. Once you get a bit better only the right muscles will be working (as opposed to lots in opposition to each other), and only as hard as they need to. In the meantime try consciously relaxing your hands while playing until all that's happening is the minimum necessary to fret the note clearly.
2. Make sure the bass is hanging right, look at your wrists to make sure they're not too cramped over. If they are, raise the strap and/or tilt the neck up. Basses round knees are a recipe for trapped tendons/RSI etc.

Overall think about minimising the movement and effort needed to play, and making sure the basic position you're working from is comfortable and relaxed. If it's not then you're fighting uphill from the get-go.

[Coilte]

I notice you say your hands "BURN" like crazy. You dont mention pain as such. This would suggest to me that what is happening is a build up of lactic acid. If you stop for a minute or two, does this burning sensation go away ? If you dont know, then try it and see.

As well as all the good advice given so far, I would suggest that you warm up before a playing session. Before you even touch the bass, do some gentle stretches (search You Tube for "Hand Stretches for Guitar"). After that, SLOWLY do some chromatic scales above the 5th fret. Dont dive head long into fast strenuous playing immediately. Give the hand(s) a further 2-3 minutes to prepare for the strenuous task being asked of them.


Here is an article on lactic acid which may throw some light into what may be happening in your situation :


[url="http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-does-lactic-acid-buil"]http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-does-lactic-acid-buil[/url]

[wal4string]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1341822410' post='1724423']
I notice you say your hands "BURN" like crazy. You dont mention pain as such. This would suggest to me that what is happening is a build up of lactic acid. If you stop for a minute or two, does this burning sensation go away ? If you dont know, then try it and see.

As well as all the good advice given so far, I would suggest that you warm up before a playing session. Before you even touch the bass, do some gentle stretches (search You Tube for "Hand Stretches for Guitar"). After that, SLOWLY do some chromatic scales above the 5th fret. Dont dive head long into fast strenuous playing immediately. Give the hand(s) a further 2-3 minutes to prepare for the strenuous task being asked of them.


Here is an article on lactic acid which may throw some light into what may be happening in your situation :


[url="http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-does-lactic-acid-buil"]http://www.scientifi...actic-acid-buil[/url]
[/quote]++1
Also check this thread [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/177265-warm-up-how-and-how-long/"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/177265-warm-up-how-and-how-long/[/url]

Edited July 9, 2012 by wal4string

[Damonjames]

Thanks for the posts. Iris definitely lactic acid burn as shortly after playing it goes away and there is no joint pain.
Will try a warm up stretch and see how I go

[51m0n]

OK.

Try this.

Play your scales for a minute as a warm up with your amp so as to set your mind and fingers into their usual place.

Fret the low G on the E string with your middle finger (as if you are about to play a 1 Octave G major scale).

Pluck the note.

Now, without playing any quieter with your right hand, start playing 8th notes on that low G and slowly relax your left hand's index finger. Make sure your index finger is right up on the fret of the G, keep relaxing. When you hear the note buzz, apply ever so slightly more pressure until it stops. Keep the volume even now!

Thats a lot less pressure isnt it!!

You have been wasting all that effort and working your hands far too hard all this time (prepared to bet this is the case at this point!!). Carry on like that and you will damage your hands badly.

Now fret the A on the 5th fret of the E string with your pinky and repeat the process. Go through all your scales, really really focus on left hand pressure.

It will take a couple of hours to go through several scales in all keys resetting your concept of the required pressure and you will have to repeat this for a good long time to come to stop yourself getting into bad habits again.

Now try the same thing with a couple of your favourite grooves.

Once you are happy with your left hand turn your amp's input gain up about twice as loud as it is now. Then play so softly with your right hand that you dont light up the input gain light. Repeat all the above.

Now turn the input gain down to halfway between where you used to have it and where it is now, but dotn play any louder, and turn the master volume up to make up the difference. Repeat all the above but accent the off beat to just below the point of lighting up the input gain clip light. That wil be a lot more force than you were using amoment ago, but less than you have been up until now, and will demonstate the dynamic range you have available all of a sudden.

Repeat the entire first half concentrating on the left hand with your new lighter plucking style and you will find you can use even less effort now you arent plucking nearly so hard. As a consequence you will be able to easily play faster, more precisely and for far longer without any pain in your hands or fingers.

See if that lot helps!!

[jimbobothy]

Nice last post, I'll try that one. Also Gary Willis I'm led to believe has his amp up loads with a soft playing touch for a fatter more consistent tone

[51m0n]

Definitely, Bob Babbit has stated that he and James Jamerson [b][i]both[/i][/b] got their big fat tone by plucking softly and turning the amp up

The transient peak on the note is significantly lower in volume compared to the sustain level if you pluck more gently, that transient peak is largely upper harmonic 'clack', so plucking more softly and turning the amp up removes that from the sound giving you a far fatter tone. And your hands hurt less.

What is not to like?

[51m0n]

Oh one more thing, the less hard you pluck the lower you can get your action (within reason), which makes holding down the string even easier. This is a [i][b]'very good thing'[/b][/i].

[Bilbo]

Simon's ideas work for double bass also. I found I was working far too hard and, using the amp and relaxing my left hand has made for a better sound and stronger swing feel. I am also working on gritting my teeth less......

[51m0n]

Oh yeah, gritted teeth/clenched jaw, I get that if I haven't played for a while and I find myelf 'in at the deep end' a bit. Also accompanied by, "Oh sh**! I need to remember to breath!"

Oh, and dont thank me for the above, its taking ideas from Michael Manring's old VHS video to their logical conclusion. Completely changed how I play (from a technical hand position/strength/damage perspective), for the better....

Edited July 20, 2012 by 51m0n

[clarket2]

In response to your second question (as there's loads of really good stuff here already on the first), ideally you want to persevere with getting the octave with your ring finger, as eventually the stretch will get easier. Being able to do the one finger per fret thing at the bottom end is really important especially once you get into playing more intricate lines.

To give yourself a break though what I've seen a lot of guys do is use a double bass fingering whereby you play the octave with your little finger. However I'd stress again how important the one finger per fret hand will be for your playing.

[louisthebass]

In my experience, I've found DB fingering (1-2-4) over a 4 fret range up to about the 5th fret to be very useful (after that I use a mixture of DB & OFPF). I very rarely use OFPF below the 5th fret. The main thing about trying to do a root - octave shape with the first & third fingers is that it puts a lot of strain on the third finger unless you do some kind of shift. Using the fourth finger for the octave takes the pressure off the third finger - the third & fourth fingers both share a tendon, and the last thing you want to do is damage yourself (unless you've got what Dave Marks calls "Gulliver Hands"....in which case OFPF will be easy peasy).

[51m0n]

Yeah I use a lot of db style 124 fingering, but then I play a 35" scale 5 string. Whenever I pick up a 34" scale 4 string it seems rather twee in comparison now.....

[matejj53]

I think warming up and warming down as well as exercising as much as you can. If it hurts it is bad if it start hurting you have to stop playing.
Play at slow tempos help too..

[BottomE]

I've developed some great hand and wrist strengthening exercises which i have been using for years, even before i started playing bass

[Coilte]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1345830150' post='1782235']
I've developed some great hand and wrist strengthening exercises which i have been using for years, even before i started playing bass
[/quote]

Minimal strength is required to play the bass. Stamina and dexterity are what's required.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Damonjames' timestamp='1341779061' post='1724110']
Next question is I seem to be having trouble playing an octave above say an g ( like a power chord with first and third fingers) on the e string or any lower than 3rd fret unless I have my bass up around my nipples. Now as an aspiring rock bassist this is obviously not a good look, but I do struggle at times with my short lady like fingers. Any advice greatly appreciated cheers.
[/quote]
First of all try playing the octaves with your first and forth finger rather than first and third-especially in the lower positions.It will
put less strain on your hand. Also,make sure that you are not gripping the neck.Your thumb should be used as a pivot and not
as a grip.You should be able to lift your thumb off the neck and still play. (I've been given sh*t in the past for saying this,but I
can happily and easily demonstrate it).
Check your bass height.It doesn't matter if you're a rock bassist or not,find a height where your wrists are not at extreme angles
because this will cause tension and pain. Besides,Billy Sheehan wears his bass high. If your shoulder is hurting,try a different strap-
something like the wide Levys leather strap or a Comfort Strapp can make a big difference.
The bottom line is that if you are hurting you are doing something wrong. Maybe go for a couple of lessons to sort out your
technique and posture.