Metronome vs Speed

[wishface]

I think I agree (with Jeff Berlin) that being a slave to a metronome is both missing the point and setting oneself up to fail. However if you don't use a metronome, how do you develop speed, dexterity and precision in doing so?

[chris_b]

I don't understand that comment.

You need to be in time and to play at the highest level you need perfect timing. If you can do that without a metronome then you're luckier than me but the metronome is only a tool to help you improve your playing, like an amp, a tuner or the chair you sit on when you’re practicing.

[paul_5]

Being a good timekeeper is absolutely essential for a bass player. I've had studio sessions where the drummer and I have been recording to a click, but at some points the music has just [i]needed[/i] to speed up a fraction; the drummer felt it before I did, and increased a couple of bpm. I made the decision to follow the drummer rather than the click and we ended up with a great take. We had made artistically interpreted the score and had made music, instead of an audible representation of the dots and lines.

I think it's only once you have developed solid timekeeping as a player that you can start to monkey around with it. And get away with it.

[Bilbo]

This one always makes me scratch my head, at least a little. I completely agree that being a slave to a metronome is potentially self-defeating but, in my experience, spending some time with one can pay dividends in terms of defining a players relationship with the pulse. For me, what you are practising when you work with a metronome is not 'playing in time' but 'playing in time alongside another sound-source'. I have come across more than a handful of players over the years who sound great on their own but who can't really play their stuff when there is a defined pulse being created around them. In short, I think there is a lot to be said for practising without a metronome to get the thing right but playing [i]with[/i] a metronome to get it right 'in time' i.e practising playing what you are doing whilst listening to another person (machine) playing as well. When that skill is developed and you are playing with real people, you can use your developed listening skill to react to the time around you, thereby turning the metronomic into the musical.

When people say 'Jeff Berlin says metronomes are a waste of time', I say Gary Burton and John McLaughlin would disagree. Personally, I prefer a drum machine to a metronome but sometimes the metronome is the convenient option. And JB is in no way the 'grooviest' player out there an can be a little 'soulless' so we have to ask whether his perspective is the only legitimate one. I am not trashing his views, just saying that metronomes have their place.

[wishface]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1342168729' post='1730569']
I don't understand that comment.

You need to be in time and to play at the highest level you need perfect timing. If you can do that without a metronome then you're luckier than me but the metronome is only a tool to help you improve your playing, like an amp, a tuner or the chair you sit on when you’re practicing.
[/quote]Jeff Berlin isn't a fan of using the metronome. It's a little unclear whether he's against it entirely, or in certain situations.

My point isn't so much about timing, but developing spead. Many players, myself included, have tried working with a metronome to develop speed, increasing the tempo bit by bit. But we hit a wall. So getting rid of the metronome, as JB seems to suggest, would help. But how do you develop speed without it?

[wishface]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1342171261' post='1730660']
This one always makes me scratch my head, at least a little. I completely agree that being a slave to a metronome is potentially self-defeating but, in my experience, spending some time with one can pay dividends in terms of defining a players relationship with the pulse. For me, what you are practising when you work with a metronome is not 'playing in time' but 'playing in time alongside another sound-source'. I have come across more than a handful of players over the years who sound great on their own but who can't really play their stuff when there is a defined pulse being created around them. In short, I think there is a lot to be said for practising without a metronome to get the thing right but playing [i]with[/i] a metronome to get it right 'in time' i.e practising playing what you are doing whilst listening to another person (machine) playing as well. When that skill is developed and you are playing with real people, you can use your developed listening skill to react to the time around you, thereby turning the metronomic into the musical.

When people say 'Jeff Berlin says metronomes are a waste of time', I say Gary Burton and John McLaughlin would disagree. Personally, I prefer a drum machine to a metronome but sometimes the metronome is the convenient option. And JB is in no way the 'grooviest' player out there an can be a little 'soulless' so we have to ask whether his perspective is the only legitimate one. I am not trashing his views, just saying that metronomes have their place.
[/quote]I'm not posting to discuss his comments per se, but in the context of developing speed etc, as I said.

I'm also not advocating his music. I've never really been a fan of jazz/fusion, except in certain cases. Most of it bores me silly. JB is undoubtedly a competent and successful musician and the stuff he did with Bruford interested me, but I wouldn't listen to it much anymore. The same with Jaco Pastorius: another excellent musician, obviously, but his music, for the most part, bored me senseless. I have no interested in listening to him play Charlie Parker pieces, at all. But he obviously knew how to play well (not that I want to discuss him anymore than I want to discuss JB or another such player, and there are a ton of these competent jazzesque players).

[Bilbo]

The only way to learn to play faster is to play what you can play slowly, only play it faster. If you can play something at 100 bpm, the only way to learn to play it at 200 bpm is to keep trying i.e practice. I see playing with a metronome as no different to playing with a drumm machine or playing along with a record. The only advice I have is to play things as fast as you can, not as fast as you can't

You also need to decide whether you want to play 'set pieces' fast or to improvise at fast tempos. Playing things you have learned fast is one thing, improvising at fast tempos is a different skill and you need not only to be able to [i]play[/i] fast but also to [i]think[/i] fast which, IMO, is much harder. Playing fast things with other people is a good way af guaging progress but that is not always possible as there aren't that many people who will want to play 'Donna Lee' with you for hours at a time

Frankly, I say go with the metronome.

[chris_b]

How fast do you want to go?

You can play along to YouTube vids and CD's until you can play as fast as you need, but the benefit of a metronome is you can speed it up as you want.

Playing with a metronome is like playing with a boring drummer but with better timing. How bad is that?

[BassMan94]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1342173864' post='1730722']
there aren't that many people who will want to play 'Donna Lee' with you for hours at a time
[/quote]

I'd Love That !

[wishface]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1342174347' post='1730735'] How fast do you want to go? You can play along to YouTube vids and CD's until you can play as fast as you need, but the benefit of a metronome is you can speed it up as you want. Playing with a metronome is like playing with a boring drummer but with better timing. How bad is that? [/quote]Well I don't know any drummers so that's not an option.
How fast do I want to go? How long is a piece of string!

[louisthebass]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1342173864' post='1730722']
The only way to learn to play faster is to play what you can play slowly, only play it faster. If you can play something at 100 bpm, the only way to learn to play it at 200 bpm is to keep trying i.e practice. I see playing with a metronome as no different to playing with a drumm machine or playing along with a record. The only advice I have is to play things as fast as you can, not as fast as you can't

Frankly, I say go with the metronome.
[/quote]

Sound advice there .

[funkypenguin]

I find the metronome is a useful tool for developing rhythmic accuracy and even technique. It also makes playing to a click in the studio feel alot more natural, if you regularly use the metronome as part of your practice routine. I use one when im warming up, for technical excercises and for working on tricky passages in whatever music im working on. I started using one regularly a couple of years ago and the timing, evenness and fluidity of my playing have improved alot. speed, i find, is something that develops with time. If you play up tempo music on a regular basis, your speed will also improve. working through tempos with the metronome has helped, but i dont rely on it for speed

[davey_one_visits]

I think metronomes are a positive thing. I got my time up to to scratch using one so in my experience they do work.

However I think there are some methods of metronome practise that are more effective than others. Here's a few tips that I've picked up:

Don't use an accent on the 1st beat as you can become reliant on it.

Half the speed of the metronome and have the click on beats two and four.

Half the speed again and move the click around onto different beats. Start with the click on beat one, then try beat three, then two, then four.

Never practise new material with a metronome. Learn it first the add it later to tighten everything up.

As for speed. That's never something I've associated with a metronome. Just learn something slowly and gradually make it faster.

I like Jeff Berlins music and his teaching methods. Essicially his philosophy about the difference between academic study and art. I don't share his views on metronomes because my reality is that they have really helped me develop my own playing.