lojo Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Sorry if this is in the wrong place, but it's not about amps. I know some on here do gigs where you have good pa support without bringing backline I'm considering doing this soon, but it's scary I know that at the gig in question theyll refuse to di my amp and will take it from the signal input, so any tone produced is wasted anyway, and the foldback will have more than enough bass in it Goes against the grain, but just wondered if this scared anyone else when they did it first time ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 As long as could hear myself it would be fine with me, people worry to much about getting their exact tone they have spent ages perfecting in the spare room reproduced on stage and out front of house IMO. So what if you have got a coupe of barefaced cabs and a 1000watt head it's still no match for £20k+ of pa system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I've accepted the fact that if you're going through the PA you don't have control of your sound anyway. As has been said, so long as the monitoring is adequate, then relax. And look forward to not having to haul your rig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Forget what is out front as that is not much of a concern.... Or rather you aren't mixing, so you need to concentrate on the signal you control. In that sense straight out the bass in fine as that is your purest bass signal anyway rather than amp DI. Your next concern is the monitor mix so my first question is how many mixes do we have and what mon/side fill power do we have. Then I decide whether I take a back line. If they say something like turbo sound or Martin then I begin to trust them... If they come back with others then it is a 50/50 call over who I give control on my monitor to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 [quote name='lojo' timestamp='1342336547' post='1733272'] I know that at the gig in question theyll refuse to di my amp and will take it from the signal input, so any tone produced is wasted anyway, and the foldback will have more than enough bass in it [/quote] Where do these deaf moron sound men come from? They'd never consider doing that to any other instrument (especially guitars) so why is it considered OK to treat the bass guitar that way? I must be lucky because in 30+ years of gigging I've never had the misfortune to come across one of these idiots. If I did I would ask to see what effects they had in their PA rack and then ask how good their psychic powers were to enable them to switch on and off drive, chorus and timed delay to match what I was doing with my rig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojo Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 (edited) [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1342346345' post='1733409'] Where do these deaf moron sound men come from? They'd never consider doing that to any other instrument (especially guitars) so why is it considered OK to treat the bass guitar that way? [/quote] This is true, they'll mic guitar cabs etc. I Played the gig last year (depping both times) and it's 15min or so between bands, they just plugged inline, when I told him my amps di was good (not hot etc) he said firmly no we do it this way, no time to argue, I was shocked because I have settings on my Amp I like to throw into the desk, but if it's not possible to do this why bring it. They do at least ask what the drummer wants in his mix, same drummer who last year said mainly bass, and his monitor was loud enough for me Anyway, this is the perfect opportunity for me to experiment with this no rig idea, as it makes no odds sound wise out front anyhow, as said before just seems strange not to bring one, I'm sure the other bands will be wheeling in 810s Edited July 15, 2012 by lojo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1342346345' post='1733409'] Where do these deaf moron sound men come from? They'd never consider doing that to any other instrument (especially guitars) so why is it considered OK to treat the bass guitar that way? I must be lucky because in 30+ years of gigging I've never had the misfortune to come across one of these idiots. If I did I would ask to see what effects they had in their PA rack and then ask how good their psychic powers were to enable them to switch on and off drive, chorus and timed delay to match what I was doing with my rig. [/quote] I really dont see this as a problem, If your using effects then you just put all that before the DI if its all amp based effects and the infamous 'your amps tone' then unless everyone at the venue can hear your rig as 100% backline then most your sound is still coming from the PA system. Flea has 1 of his 1x10s mic'd up out of 16 10's and 3 15's how much of what the audience hear is anything like what he can hear on stage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 (edited) [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1342363286' post='1733735'] I really dont see this as a problem, If your using effects then you just put all that before the DI if its all amp based effects and the infamous 'your amps tone' then unless everyone at the venue can hear your rig as 100% backline then most your sound is still coming from the PA system. Flea has 1 of his 1x10s mic'd up out of 16 10's and 3 15's how much of what the audience hear is anything like what he can hear on stage? [/quote] My effects are part of my rig and the settings on my amp form part of the overall sound. These days I run a much simpler set up than some of the more complex rigs I've run in the past, where some came before the amp, some were in the loop and the whole thing was bi-amped with some effects only on treble and others only on the bass. Which mean that the bass required two DIs to capture the full sound. My current rig still has all the effects in effects loop of the amp and I use the valves in the pre-amp section of the amp to get most of my drive sound. The bass plugs directly into the amp. That means in order to get the sound of the effects through the PA the sound man needs to either use the amp DI or mic up one of the cabs. Luckily as I said in my first post I've never come across a sound man dumb enough for this to be a problem. Edited July 15, 2012 by BigRedX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Sounds complicated Even after all that its still coming out of the PA and if the sound engineer mixes you a sh*t sound you have, well, a sh*t sound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 With the really complicated rig we used to supply all our own DI boxes and XLR leads and had our own FoH engineer and compared with the other gear we were using the bass rig was relatively straight forward. I had a couple of raised eyebrows when I said I needed two channels for the bass but when they saw that what it actually meant was I needed two sockets on the stage box and our engineer knew what he was doing they were happy to let us get on with it. If the sound man is going to be an arse and give you crap sound then there's not a lot you can do about other than to never use him again. But at least if the PA feed comes from the correct point in the signal chain then it's going to be slightly less sh*t than it would be if it was just raw bass guitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrtcat Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 How would this work if you're using an amp with 2 channels? Some sound guys are a pain and I don't agree with the "my way or the highway" approach. I've run sound at several big venues in the past and it makes chuff all difference if the bass player wants to use his amp's di or a mic. As long as the signal is reliable and safe then you work with the sound the bass player provides. It's up to him as long as he knows his time constraints and works to them. Sounds like the guy is a bit of an amateur. I used to love it when bass players used sansamps. Great tone served up in a nice clean signal. Players who constantly tinker with the sound throughout a gig are a nuisance tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Alsatian Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Most of my gigs were DI'd and as I could hear myself from the front monitor, it didn't bother me as I'd keep my amp nearly flat anyway, tinkering with settings I could be heard in practice without having to use volume to compensate. In fact, I think my bass sounded better through the monitor anyway, so I stopped taking the amp along eventually (it couldn't be DI'd due to a ground lift problem). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 (edited) [quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1342366516' post='1733795'] Great tone served up in a nice clean signal. Players who constantly tinker with the sound throughout a gig are a nuisance tho. [/quote] This is why for me unless the player does something really important with his actual amp sounds (very rare and still no matter how nerdy the bass player its still coming from the PA) then a clean DI is always for the win, even then an active bass can make some fairly big adjustments to the sound if they meddle alot. Edited July 15, 2012 by stingrayPete1977 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 (edited) [quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1342366516' post='1733795'] Players who constantly tinker with the sound throughout a gig are a nuisance tho. [/quote] Guitarists and synth players constantly "tinker with the sound". Why is it not a problem for them and is for the bass guitarist? Edited July 15, 2012 by BigRedX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 See I dont like Muse for all the tinkering around, it fine in the studio and sure Im not saying you have to have one sound and no fx but just as you think man that bass sounds great the next song starts and its too quiet or too loud or does not cut through etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1342366995' post='1733808'] See I dont like Muse for all the tinkering around, it fine in the studio and sure Im not saying you have to have one sound and no fx but just as you think man that bass sounds great the next song starts and its too quiet or too loud or does not cut through etc [/quote] That's what rehearsals are for. If you're too dumb to be able to sort out a little thing like level matching them you're probably too dumb to be in a band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1342367152' post='1733812'] That's what rehearsals are for. If you're too dumb to be able to sort out a little thing like level matching them you're probably too dumb to be in a band. [/quote] I have to say though, that there are almost certainly plenty of people who get all their levels and sounds sorted in isolation, and wonder why it doesn't work in a band situation. As for the OP, never been worried about going direct, if I can hear what I'm playing, it's all fine with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markstuk Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I suspect this is horses for courses, however I would expect any decent sound engineer to take a feed from where I ask him to in the signal chain... It could be direct from the bass or via a mic'd up cab or any point in between.. I've not had a problem in this respect with bass, although occasionally I do have to explain why I want a stereo feed for keys... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1342367152' post='1733812'] That's what rehearsals are for. If you're too dumb to be able to sort out a little thing like level matching them you're probably too dumb to be in a band. [/quote] Even if you were lucky enough to play a full run through at a massive venue which unless you are the headline act at a big paying gig rather than a pub band once it was full of people it would sound totally different, I think calling someone dumb for that is harsh. Its nothing to do with level matching, I used to use FX and get all my levels spot on, but the different types of venue made them all to cock, if it was as simple as just watching the little red lights and make sure they are all peaking to the same level we would all be sound engineers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 It's all about tailoring your rehearsals to the gigs you are playing. For most of us who play pubs and small clubs this means setting up as you would for a gig and playing. I would expect any new patches I'd set up at home to require further tweaking once I'd heard them in a band context. If you are a big band like Muse you'll probably spend at least a week on a sound stage going through full production rehearsals with the touring PA, lights and all the other paraphernalia. Once again this is as close as possible to what it's going to be like at the venues you'll be playing on tour. Again you'll be able to adjust any sounds so that they are correct in the band context. When I'm talking about level matching I'm talking about the band as a whole. About using your ears so that when you change the sound of an instrument it has the desired effect on the overall band sound. That's what arrangement is all about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 That all sounds so simple yet Im sure we have all seen big name bands with awful bass sounds especially once they start to use fx? Im not saying I have a fix for it, Im just saying it happens to the best so what chance have we got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Every chance. Use your ears. Make proper use of rehearsal times. That means if you are practising the set as opposed to writing new songs set up as if it was a gig and play like that. Listen to the sounds of the other instruments. The important thing is to sound like a band, not a bunch of musicians playing the same song. How the sounds of the instruments fit together is just as important as how the notes they play fit together. Guitarists and keyboard players change how their instruments sound all the time. Shouldn't the bass also change when appropriate to cover this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I swap from fingered to pick, does that count? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1342376671' post='1734005'] I swap from fingered to pick, does that count? [/quote] Absolutely! You chose the appropriate technique based on the sound you want and hopefully getting the correct sound within the overall band mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiamPodmore Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I've done 2 ampless gigs, one was horrendous because the monitoring was sh*t and my ears were beyond f*cked. The other, was absolutely brilliant. The monitoring situation was near-perfect (Just a little distortion but nothing major), could hear everything i needed to pretty clearly, and not having an amp or cab on stage gave me a little more space to run around, which is always good. Liam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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