Chords, double/triple stops & how they work....

[Rumble]

First up, my theory knowledge isn't fantastic so please go slow and I don't read music when I'm playing!

I understand the basic major & minor triads, and I use 5th DS quite happily, but I need to understand which chords I can play over a song in a particular key. For example, if I'm playing a song in Gmaj, I know that I'd need to play a minor triad in the second and third positions (A and and major triads in the 4th and 5th (C and D). However, if I want to break away from just playing Double-stops based on triads - and sticking with the example of playing a song in G - could I play a D7 chord in the 5th position instead of just playing a plain old D?

Taking this one step further, is there a general rule that says that I'd always play a 7th chord in the 5th position of any key, or a maj7th chord in the 4th position etc....?

I guess my basic question is, how do I use Triple-stops?

I hope this makes sense!

[ras52]

[quote name='Rumble' timestamp='1342339742' post='1733298']
I hope this makes sense!
[/quote]
Er, no

Are you talking about which triads are commonly built on each degree of a scale? E.g. in your example of G major:

G Am Bm C D Em F#dim

which can be genralised as

I IIm IIIm IV V VIm VIIdim

Then if you want to extend this to seventh chords using just the notes of the major scale, you get

Gmaj7 Am7 Bm7 Cmaj7 D7 Em7 F#m7b5 (the last one is a "half-diminshed" seventh - I think jazzers use a circle symbol for it)

Hope that makes sense too... and maybe even addresses your question!?

[paul_5]

chords are made up of 3 notes, the root, third and fifth. For example, C major is constructed of the Root note ©, Third (E) and Fifth (G). Jazzers will extend chords with 7ths, 9ths etc...

Once you start adding extra notes (or extensions) then you can start to miss the 5th out, as it stops being quite so important sonically.

Long story short:

Triple stops are a posh way of saying 'play 3 notes at once'.

A good place to start is this:

[attachment=113184:Triple Stops.pdf]

The Root is the A (5th fret on the E string), the 7ths are the notes on the D string, and the 3rds are the notes on the G string - notice how there are no 5ths but the chords still sound full?

[ras52]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1342353687' post='1733574']
... For example, C major is constructed of the Root note © ...
[/quote]

Whoah! Does that mean anyone who uses the term "root note" pays you a royalty?!

[Rumble]

[quote name='ras52' timestamp='1342341603' post='1733321']
Are you talking about which triads are commonly built on each degree of a scale? E.g. in your example of G major:

[/quote]

I think that's pretty much it, yes. I guess it's also about how you would 'finger' each chord. For example, would you always finger IV the same way (allowing for adequate space on the fingerboard), regardless of the songs root chord?

Paul 5 - thanks for your input too. Do you suggest I start off just working on the R,3,5 chords first? When starting to add the 7ths would you always drop the 5th instead of the 3rd?

Thanks guys....

Edited July 15, 2012 by Rumble

[paul_5]

[quote name='Rumble' timestamp='1342357807' post='1733645']
Paul 5 - thanks for your input too. Do you suggest I start off just working on the R,3,5 chords first? When starting to add the 7ths would you always drop the 5th instead of the 3rd?
[/quote]

To be honest, R,3,7 chords are easier to finger than r,3,5, so you might want to start there? As regards always dropping the 5th, it's not a rule, it's just that once you start adding extensions (7ths, 9ths) the fifth becomes less important. The 3rd tells the ear whether the chord is major or minor, and the 7th adds more interest by being close to the root note (even though it's up an octave) and causing some tension. The 5th sits perfectly between the root note and the octave, so by comparison is a bit 'vanilla'.

There's certainly no rule that says you have to drop it, it's just that it's simply not adding as much to the sound of the chords as the other notes, so it's often left out just to make the chord simpler to play.

[Rumble]

D'ya know what, I think the penny might have actually dropped, thanks to you guys! I had it in my head that it was much more complicated than this. However, having listened to what's been said / written and having just drawn the different combinations out on a piece of paper, I can see that the majority of the chords I've seen other guys playing are just maj or min combos of R,3,7, with the occasional R,5 thrown in.

Please tell me I haven't completely misunderstood!!

[paul_5]

[quote name='Rumble' timestamp='1342382406' post='1734143']
I can see that the majority of the chords I've seen other guys playing are just maj or min combos of R,3,7, with the occasional R,5 thrown in.

Please tell me I haven't completely misunderstood!!
[/quote]

Nope, I reckon you've got it - we all cheat!

[ras52]

Glad to be of help... even though I'm still not sure what the original question was :-O

Re. dropping the fifth... here we get in the territory of "if it sounds right, it is right". Everyone agrees that a plain C chord contains C E and G. Does Cmaj7 include a G? You decide. The further you get into this, the more you may find that "naming" chords is perilous business, and that the only way to accurately comminicate what you mean is by spelling out the individual notes... then letting others argue about what it's called!

For an famous example which has caused chord-namers much fun, try [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_chord"]http://en.wikipedia..../Tristan_chord.[/url] (The article is probably still readable if you don't read notation.)

Edited July 16, 2012 by ras52

[FuNkShUi]

Yeh i think some people on youtube and such like to try and confuse you and explain things in more difficult than necessary terms. Makes them feel clever or something!
If you are starting to delve into the theory why not have a lesson? Can point you in the right direction!
Alternatively, Scott Devine always produces great instructional videos for all levels

[Rumble]

I've seen some of Scott's stuff before, but I haven't seen anything on chord use. Doesn't he tend to be very theoretical in his approach?

[paul_5]

Jonas Hellborg published a book on bass chords, IIRC it's called 'Chord Bassics' or something like that. I got loads out of it when I first started playing more than one note at once, can't seem to find it now though.

[Hector]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1342473659' post='1735899']
Jonas Hellborg published a book on bass chords, IIRC it's called 'Chord Bassics' or something like that. I got loads out of it when I first started playing more than one note at once, can't seem to find it now though.
[/quote]

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chord-Bassics-Compact-Reference-Library/dp/0825610583"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chord-Bassics-Compact-Reference-Library/dp/0825610583[/url]

Looks to be a reasonable price.

[Rumble]

I'm sure I used to have that book knocking around somewhere - what's the betting I'll be able to find it though?!

Thanks for the tips guys.

[clarket2]

What has been said here is great stuff especially the stuff about omitting the fifth from the chord.

The next stage up from this is to move from just playing chords in what we call root position (ie with the root note as the lowest pitch). Once you've got the positions already mentioned down, why not try experimenting with the third, fifth or seventh as the lowest pitches. These different "voicings" of chords can give you some interesting movement on bass, while still staying within the original harmony.

[Rumble]

Are these what are known as inversions? First inversion starts with the 3rd, second with the 5th, third with the 7th?

[ras52]

[quote name='Rumble' timestamp='1342540256' post='1736835']
Are these what are known as inversions? First inversion starts with the 3rd, second with the 5th, third with the 7th?
[/quote]
Spot on.

[Rumble]

Would you say that playing chords is easier on a 4,5 or 6 string bass?

[clarket2]

Having a high c string does help

[Rumble]

I've just received the Jonas Hellborg book.............and realised why I gave it away last time! It doesn't seem to show any inversions. Are there any books out there with a bit more detail. Maybe even a bit of text would be nice!

Edited July 23, 2012 by Rumble

[clarket2]

I've just got a copy of Randy Vincent's - "Three Note Voicings and Beyond" which is great and might help you out.... its designed for electric guitar though so it takes a bit of lateral thinking as not all of it is immediately doable on bass. Takes a very different approach in that it is very focused on smooth voice leading so as to get chords to sit together well

[Hector]

[quote name='clarket2' timestamp='1345672310' post='1780436']
I've just got a copy of Randy Vincent's - "Three Note Voicings and Beyond" which is great and might help you out.... its designed for electric guitar though so it takes a bit of lateral thinking as not all of it is immediately doable on bass. Takes a very different approach in that it is very focused on smooth voice leading so as to get chords to sit together well
[/quote]

I've been using this book on and off for the last year or two, and would thoroughly recommend it.

[Doddy]

[quote name='ras52' timestamp='1342448786' post='1735186']
Re. dropping the fifth... here we get in the territory of "if it sounds right, it is right". Everyone agrees that a plain C chord contains C E and G. Does Cmaj7 include a G? You decide. The further you get into this, the more you may find that "naming" chords is perilous business, and that the only way to accurately comminicate what you mean is by spelling out the individual notes... then letting others argue about what it's called!
[/quote]
What you are basically referring to here is chord voicings rather than chords themselves.
A Cmaj7 chord does include a G (C,E,G,,however playing the full chord on the bass can sound muddy.So,the fifth is
often dropped because in straight major and minor chords it isn't a defining note of the chord.You'll notice that when you
play a root and fifth together (power chord) there is no major or minor harmony.That's why a lot of double stops are played
as root and 3rd (or 10th)-it defines the basic harmony.The seventh does the same-it says if the chord is maj7,min7 or dominant7.
The fifth only really does this for augmented and diminished chords.

A five or six string will allow you to play wider voicings and intervals,but you can play any form of 7 chord comfortably on a
standard four string.

[Bilbo]

I guess this kind of chord theory/voicing is taking players away from 'bass' playing and into the realms of guitar playing. As such, I would suggest you don't use bass books but look to guitar books or plain old theory books like Mark Levine's for the concepts and then start exploring the details on your bass. Hellborg's book was one of the first to cover this kind of chord work and is, IIRC, based on the idea that the player is using a 4 string so it should be approached with that in mind.

If you want to go to the cutting edge, you can't expect to find all of the answers neatly laid out in theory books. You may nave to dig around and make links to develop your own concept. For me, chordal work on the bass has very limited applications and fails more often than it succeeds, simply because the timbre of the notes militates against clarity. Playing chords high up on a six string neck is just quasi-guitar playing so, in my view, doesn't really count.

PS I think I got to the age of 49 before I heard of 'triple stopping'

[paul_5]

If you need an alternative method of denoting consonance or dissonance in extended chord voicings then you could do worse than this:

[attachment=116913:314115_10151017776152666_16878458_n.jpg]